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Growing Bolder Radio: Interviews with Temple Grandin and Gayle King

Growing Bolder Radio Show
with Mark Middleton and Bill Shafer

Four Interviews

May 12, 2012

Link to broadcast

Transcript provided by:
Speech text Access LLC

>>MARK / BILL:  I am Mark Middleton along with Bill Shafer, and this is Growing Bolder.  In the next hour, a fascinating conversation with the most famous autistic person alive today; she is that, an author, speaker and HBO even made a movie about her.  We will visit with Temple Grandin.  Also we will talk to the man who has been compared to Hemingway and Mark Twain who has just written his best book yet.

>>BILL:  Is it possible to think like Leonardo de Vinci?  One of today’s top brain experts will tell us exactly how to do that.  And from de Vinci to William Tell, we’ll meet an 85-year-old national champion in archery.  Then a lively conversation with a group of women whose search for something to get them off the couch got them hooked on kickboxing.  This is Growing Bolder.

>>BILL:  Sometimes in life it is not so much about what you know, but who you know.  At least that can be a big help in getting your foot in the door.  But once you get through, if you want to stay in the game, you will need as much talent and skill if not more, than anybody else.

>>MARK:  I know where you are going with this. For a long time the country knew our next guest, mainly because she was best friends with the most famous woman in the world.  Now she has stepped into the national spotlight on her own.  Along with Charlie Rose and Erica Hill, she is the host of CBS This Morning.  I can’t wait to say hi to the very talented and smoking hot Gayle King.  Hey Gayle, how are you?

>>GAYLE:  I like that introduction, talented and smoking hot.

>>BILL:  That needs to be part of the CBS This Morning show.

>>GAYLE:  I don’t know if they’ll go for that.  I was thinking I would like to talk to people who are over 50 and active.

>>BILL:  That is us and that is our audience.  First of all, congratulations on the work you are doing.  How do you like that early morning gig?

>>GAYLE:  I like your introduction of getting your foot in the door.  I have been anchoring the news for a very long time.  I anchored the news at a station in Connecticut, a CBS station in Hartford for 18 years, and before that I was three years in Kansas City.  Before that I was in Washington DC.  So I’ve worked for very long time.  But you raise a good point.  Most people, unless you live in Connecticut or Kansas City and watched me on the news, you would only know me as Oprah’s friend.

>>BILL:  You had such a fascinating view of one of the most meteoric rises that anybody could hope for.  I’m talking about Oprah.  You knew her before she barely had two nickels to rub together.  The toughest thing for anything for anybody to handle in life is great success, and you have had your share as well.  How did you do that?

>>GAYLE:  Here’s the thing.  I think if you have a strong sense of who you are, I don’t think money and fame changes you.  If you were a jerk before that happened to you, then money and success only makes you a bigger jerk.  For me, I’ve also always been a happy kid since I was little.  It takes me a lot to get upset and a lot to tick me off.  There is a book that says you are who you are when you’re in kindergarten at the age of five.  There’s a lot of truth to that.

>>BILL:  One of the reasons we love you is you are great TV.

<Speaking over each other>

>>BILL:  You are interesting.  You are articulate.  You look good.  With that said, you are in your late 50s, and it is exciting to see someone whose career is still continuing to rise at that age.  Especially as a woman, because you know better than anyone else, that that doesn’t happen a lot in your industry.

>>GAYLE:  Until you just said that, I’m in my late 50s, I never think of it that way.  You’re right I am 57.  I keep waiting for this grown up adult feeling to kick in, because honestly I feel 38 maybe 39.  I never think of me as someone who is in my late 50s.  My daughter said to me recently, she is 25; she said, “You are working harder now than you ever did.  Aren’t you supposed to be slowing down?”  And my response was, “Isn’t it great that I don’t have to slowdown?”  That is what I think is the beauty of living in the time I am living in now.  We really do have all sorts of options.  Life is always changing and you never know what the next chapter can be.  So I guess if you can look at it as starting another chapter, I am doing that.  That this opportunity would come to me at this stage in my life, but I have to say I had a little wince when you said late 50s.  Because I remember when my mom, who is no longer with me, she died when I was turning 40, I remember when she turned 50.  When she died she was 61.  I thought when she turned 50 she was old.  And now that I’m 57…. I remember there was a time when if you said somebody was in their late 50s, I would have thought they were an old person.  And now that I am that, I don’t feel old at all.

>>BILL:  We’re speaking with Gayle King from CBS This Morning and I didn’t mean to make you wince, but we all feel the same way.  We feel we are our 30s and 40s.  Don’t you think that is part of our responsibility now?  To own up how old we are because there is nothing wrong with being 57.  Especially when you’re 57 like Gayle King.

>>GAYLE:  I never run from it.  When people ask me my age, I never shy about saying how old I am.  Because I’m actually really proud to be this age and feel the way I feel and look the way I look.  I am very proud of that.  But until you said that, I never thought of late 50s.  When I turned 50 I got the AARP magazine.  They sent me a subscription, and I called them and said please take me off your list.  I’m not ready for the AARP magazine yet.

>>MARK:  Part of the reason we dig people like you is because you are unintentionally inspirational.  You aren’t trying to stand up and say look at me, be like me.

>>GAYLE:  I love what you just said; unintentionally inspirational.  Honest to God I am so happy to be here, and by that I mean on the planet Earth.  To wake up every morning and feel really excited and energized about what you’re doing.  Can you imagine what a drag it would be to get up every day and hate your job?  And think, oh God, I have to go to work today.  I will leave here and head up over the Oprah magazine; that is my other job.  And I will be there till seven or 7:30 at night.  I am so glad that I have something to do.  And love doing both of them.

>>BILL:  You could play it totally safe Gayle.  You could keep your head low and have halfway decent jobs half the way through.  But you’re taking risks even now.  You had a show on the Oprah network.  You took a risk leaving that behind and jumping to CBS.  Were you not afraid about doing that?

>>GAYLE:  No I wasn’t afraid at all about taking this job because I believe in life, you have to take risks.  I’m not an advocate of taking foolish risks.  I won’t do something that is totally cuckoo for Cocoa puffs, but I believe in life you have to take a risk.  I had great faith in this organization.  I have faith in my abilities, but I also know….  Listen, CBS hasn’t been number one since Capt. Kangaroo.  So we have nowhere to go but up.  I was very flattered and honored to be included or considered for part of this team.  I’m working with Charlie Rose and he is over 50 also.  I’m working with Charlie Rose, who is an icon in the business; Erica Hill, who I’d seen on TV.  I think they came with a great combination of different personalities, and set us all at the table.  And we each come with something unique and different to the combination.  I have to say, so far so good.  Was I worried?  No, I wanted to do well and I want to work hard to make it so, but I wasn’t nervous about it.  I was excited.

>>MARK:  It is a great team, and you are real and that is what makes you work.  Bill and I are both refugees from local news.  We quit because we got tired of being part of the nightly crime report.  I hope you’ll tell us something we want to hear.  You are a media mogul.  We have a television show that is on 564 stations nationwide, on public broadcasting, and we still have trouble finding corporate sponsors for it.  People that want to…we have a great connection with a great powerful audience.  Why do the decision-makers in major corporations and some media organizations have disrespect for the 50 something demographic?

>>GAYLE:  That is interesting to me, that way of thinking.  I went to the doctor yesterday and had a physical.  She said, “Gayle, you are in the prime of your life”.  And I thought really, I am in the prime?   We have gotten to the stage where we have put so much focus on the18 to 35 crowd.  Many times you are still figuring yourself out.  I would like to think, by the time you hit 40 to 50, you have a general sense of who you are and know what your capabilities are.  And you are in a pretty good income earning bracket.  I don’t understand the thinking of why younger is better, or more vibrant.  I do think that is changing somewhat.

>>MARK:  We have struggled.  We get accolades from programmers.  We make connections with audiences.  But people that we talk to and corporations say, you are not our primary demographic.  So they will send their money elsewhere.

>>GAYLE:  We are a huge group of baby boomers.

>>MARK:  We are reaching a tipping point.  Tell us what your passions are to date Gayle, outside of work.  We know you work with Oprah magazine and TV.  What gets you excited?

>>GAYLE:  This is funny.  I just said the other day.  I went to Tyler Perry’s house over the weekend.  He is amazing.  Oprah and I went.  She has some kids here from South Africa.  We went to Atlanta to see his latest “Madea” play.  We stayed at Tyler’s house and he collects airplanes.  The little model airplanes.  He has a huge collection of these model airplanes.  Oprah and I both thought we needed a hobby.  Whenever anybody asks what my hobby is I say, “Fine dining”.  I asked if there was anything I could collect or do.  When people ask what I am passionate about, I say, “TV, eating, traveling, laying in the sun.”  I thought I needed a hobby.  I love music.  I went to Bruce Springsteen’s concert the other day.  At Madison Square Garden’s.  Someone else over 50; he is jumping around the stage at the age of 62.

>>MARK:  It must be good to be Gayle King.  We know you aren’t dropping names.  We got Tyler Perry, Oprah Winfrey, and Bruce Springsteen.  Gayle King, thank you so much for your time.  Congratulations on all your successes.  We will definitely be tuning in to CBS This Morning, to check you out.  <music>

>>MARK:  Coming up, a group of grandmothers who decided they are willing to fight to stay fit.  Hi, this is Mark Middleton along with Bill Shaefer.  We would like to point out that it is never too late to try something new, to get involved in something you like or just to pursue your interests.  And now we will take you out to meet a couple of folks who will convince you that if they can do it, so can you.
First up is a good guy named Bob Worrell.  And he doesn’t move very quickly these days.  He is kind of a quiet guy.  But Bob has always had a keen eye for the things he likes in life.  He loves to compete, and as he got older he became more and more interested in the sport of archery.  This was before all of the fascination with the “Hunger Games”.  For a long time he did it for the fun of it.  He even set up an archery range in his own backyard.  But he began to realize he had a pretty good eye for arrows.  When he discovered there was an archery division in the senior games, he signed right up.  The result was archery’s version of the shot heard round the world.

->>REPORTER:  He takes aim, steady eye, smooth release.  And where did it go?

>>BOB:  Right in the middle.  I can tell when they don’t make any noise.

>>REPORTER:  Things have been pretty quiet for Bob Worrell lately.  When one of the oldest sports known to man, one of the oldest men ever to play the sport did something remarkable.  Not only did he win the gold medal in the National Senior Games, but he also set a new world record; at the age of 85.

>>BOB:  For my age that is pretty good.

>>REPORTER:   Guess you could call Worrell a late bloomer.  He was in his 30s when he tried archery for the first time and he’s been hitting the bull’s-eye ever since.

>>BOB:  It a challenge.  It is pretty nice to direct the arrows to where you would like to see them.  Needless to say it is a job to do.

>>REPORTER:  It is a challenge he never gets tired of.  Forget about the golf course.  If you are looking for Worrell, here is where you’ll find him?  His back yard range.

>>BOB:  I shoot maybe an hour, or hour and a half every day, and sometimes longer.

>>REPORTER:  He works to keep his keen concentration, a steady hand and sharp eye.

>>BOB:  The name of the game is sighting.  You want to get a bow that you pull back and hold it steady.  And aim and aim until you are on it, and then release it.

>>REPORTER:  What makes his accomplishments even more amazing, he shoots the most difficult style of archery there is.  Bare bow.

>>BOB:  I don’t have any visual aids at all.  The bow has no sight, no release triggers.  I have to aim, hold, concentrate on hitting the spot and hope it works.

>>REPORTER:  It has been working great so far.  All the practice has not only helped him set archery records, but maybe even account for his healthy the medical records.

>>BOB:  That is what the doctors want to know.  They say, “I hope I can live to be as old as you are, and as active”.  I’ve had two or three tell me that.

>>REPORTER:  Doctors aren’t the one only ones who can learn from Bob Worrell.

>>BOB:   You get to thinking about how long it will go on.  The next Senior Games is two years from now.  That is in California.  Maybe I will never make it.  That is the reason you never know what you can accomplish starting out.  You can’t do that sitting still.  Make an effort.

>>MARK:  I love that story.  That is Bob Worrell.  At the age of 85, not only is he the oldest archer to participate in the National Senior Games, but has won the gold medal and is a national record holder.  If you’re just a seemingly ordinary person who has never been overly athletic or been able to have a great sense of accomplishment, it is never too late to set some goals for yourself.  And make your mark on the world.  That should give us all hope.  That it is never too late to do the same.

>>BILL:  Sometimes you just need a push to get you going.  Once you get out of the chair and into the world, you never really know where the current will take you.  That is what happened with this next group of women who call themselves the “kick boxing grannies”.  They have a similar story.  They needed to do some sort of exercise, but they couldn’t get motivated until they joined a local gym and signed up for a kick boxing aerobics class.

>>REPORTER:  Spend some time at this workout class and you will never look at aging the same way again.  These women are here to get in shape.  And they are willing to fight to do it.

>>WOMAN:  Learn how to protect yourself.  Kick, without falling down that is.

>>REPORTER:  They are battling their way to better health using basic martial arts.  The kind you use in kick boxing, and it is working for women of all ages.

>>WOMAN:   Everyone thinks exercise is really hard, and I did too.  What you need is accountability.  Coming to a class where there are other people, or getting a personal trainer has really helped.  I am finding out when I’m accountable to somebody then I’m doing it.  I won’t push myself like I am pushed.

>>REPORTER:  The man doing the pushing in this program is Tim Wright.  He is a black belt himself and a celebrated kick boxer.  As much as he is motivating them, they have inspired him.

>>TIM:  It keeps me motivated to stay fit.  We can break new boundaries.  We are breaking them every day.  Since our life expectancy is getting longer, it’s not just being alive but having a healthy physical life, mental life.  When they get in the door and see they can do it, they get empowered.  They really feel strong about themselves.  And see results.  They see their flexibility changes.

>>WOMAN:  The doctor said, “Stay active all your life”.  I took him at his word.  I just never stopped.

>>REPORTER:  Isn’t this the time to be winding down?  Not doing things like this?

>>WOMAN:  I did that and I didn’t feel good.  I was depressed.  I had anxiety, and I gained weight.  Now I am feeling better mentally and physically.

>>REPORTER:  The best news is that finding a place to take a kickboxing exercise class near you is getting easier all the time.

>>TIM:  It is interesting, funny, but also mind blowing.  It is getting more common than you think.  It’s everywhere.  There’s a person like me in almost every gym in the country doing this.  It’s just getting out there.

>>REPORTER:  If there’s one message to take away, what would it be?

>>TIM:  Don’t stop moving.  <music>

>>BILL:  I would like to tell you about something that happened to us recently that was really revealing.  The topic of aging really has become a hot button issue and programs like this are part of the reason why.  The people we have on this show are all redefining what being over 40 and 50 really is about.  This isn’t just news for any people with a few years under their belt.  It is important news for anyone of any age.  Because of that we get a lot of requests for speaking engagements.  And Mark had one that was just amazing.  It was full of business people, entrepreneurs, people who think out-of-the-box and see nothing but possibilities when they look at the opportunities of life.

>>MARK:  It was a lot of fun and you are talking about a talk that was sponsored by one of the top graduate business schools in the nation, The Crummer Business School at Rollins College.  No sooner had I begun that I realized everyone in the audience was smiling.  They got it.  They understood how much potential still exists in all of us, even after the age of 40 or 50 or 80.  The potential is there to start a whole new business, to embark on a new career, and maximize the knowledge and experience that we all have in some exciting and fulfilling ways.  They were interested to hear the Growing Bolder story, because our story does offer hope and inspiration to people of all ages.
Our story at Growing Bolder is about taking risks, finding ways to do what you believe in and the things you are passionate about doing.  And ultimately our message is about patience and perseverance.  Growing Bolder is something we started 10 years ago.  We still feel we’re at the very beginning of where we want to go.  Was it a huge risk?  Absolutely, we all walked away from great jobs.  Was it worth it?  Absolutely.  That is what everyone in the auditorium understood.  Life is about challenges.  Life is about taking risks.  You stand the best chance of meeting those challenges and taking advantage of those risks, if you take a step and start growing bolder. <music>

>>BILL:  Coming up, do you know what made de Vinci such a genius?  Michael Gelb does, and he will tell you how to put a little de Vinci into your life next.  I am Bill Shafer with Mark Middleton and this is Growing Bolder.  The show where we take all those preconceived notions and misconceptions you have about getting older and we trash them to bits.  Right now we will take on the biggest fallacies of all and that is the belief that as you get older your brain simply wears out.  That your memory starts to go and there’s nothing you can do about it.

>>MARK:  And we don’t want to take our word for it which is why we sought out a true pioneer in the fields of creative thinking, accelerated learning and innovative leadership.  We are not the only ones who are impressed.  He regularly leads seminars for DuPont, Microsoft and Nike, and he’s written a book that will absolutely blow your mind.  Or at least sharpen it some.  It is called “Brain Power: Improve Your Mind as You Age”.  Let’s say hello to Michael Gelb.

>>MIKE:  Great, thank you very much

>>MARK:  We often talk to accomplished master’s athletes on these shows and these guys are doing amazing things.  No matter how hard they work and many of them do it full-time, there are times their performances do seem to deteriorate over time.  It makes sense that the brain would do the same thing, are we wrong about that?

>>MIKE:  Yes, you are wrong.

>>MARK:  That is great news

>>MIKE:  Let’s lay it on the line right up front.  I’m about to turn 60.  I’ve been teaching this kind of material for the last 30 years or more.  Now it is really serious.

>>MARK:  It is hitting home, isn’t it?

>>MIKE:  Yes I just had a total knee replacement.  You know why?  Because my knee wore out.  I used it a lot.  I played a lot of tennis and basketball.  Two years ago I had hip replacement.  Parts of us do wear out over time.  The good news is we can replace some of those parts like knees and hips.  But even better news is that the brain doesn’t wear out with use.  As a matter of fact it is designed to improve with use.

>>MARK:  Wow.  I think 10 years ago you would’ve answered this question more concisely and clearly. <laugh>  Does science back that up, or is it just anecdotal from what you’ve learned?

>>MIKE:  This is the really good news.  30 years ago I was teaching this and was ahead of the curve on science.  We all grow up with what I call the neuro static paradigm.  Based on the science of the 50s we believed that the brain’s capacity was fixed at age 5, and after age 30 it would begin to decline.  And there was nothing we could do about it.  In the last 30 years there has been a paradigm shift, a complete revolution.  Science now confirms that your brain is designed to improve with use.  The term is neural plasticity.  And neural means brain cells and plasticity means flexible, changeable and adaptable.  In interviewing neuroscientist for brain power, there was a consensus that the paradigm has shifted.  Your brain was designed to improve with use.  The only real question is what is the best use?  That is why wrote the book.  To try to present the research, validated, practical, simple things that the average person can do to improve their mind with age.

>>MARK:  It is obvious we need to do it.  Let us learn what you have learned and written about in “Brain Power”.  As you have said, the good news is the brain can get better with age.  The reality is for most people it doesn’t.  Either they are not doing something or they are eating the wrong things or whatever it is.  What can we do?

>>MIKE:  The first thing is to change your attitude dramatically.  To really integrate into your everyday behavior and orientation, this notion of neural plasticity.  It does become a self-fulfilling prophecy.  Dr. Becca Levy studied 650 people over the course of many years.  Those with a positive attitude toward aging outlived those with a negative attitude on aging by more than 7 1/2 years on average.  Attitude makes a tremendous difference.  I tell people the reason I put the chapter on positive attitude, on optimism, on embracing gratitude, forgiveness, humor every single day is, if you have that positive attitude, you are more likely to do everything else I tell you to do in the book.  And you’re strengthening your immune system on a daily basis.  We now know through the discipline of psycho neural immunology, your attitude affects your immune system moment to moment.  It also affects your alertness and your memory.
The second principle that we introduce in the book is the importance of continuous learning.  Learning something new everyday, challenging your brain.  All it takes is 15 minutes.  Professor Joe Verghese, classic study, New England Journal of Medicine, found this the very best activities for people to strengthen their minds as they get older, and prevent dementia and Alzheimer’s.  Mental sports like chess and bridge, learning a musical instrument or new language.  Some German researchers found that learning to juggle 15 minutes a day for three months resulted in significant improvement in the development of both the gray and white matter of the adult brain.  The juggling experiment is significant because it not only validates something I always felt intuitively, having worked my way through graduate school as professional juggler, it was one of the benchmark studies in creating this new paradigm.  What changed in the last 30 years is technology.  All of a sudden we could look at your brain on MRI and see that when you learn something new like juggling or playing chess or bridge, your brain was changing.  We didn’t know this was possible.  What if you don’t want to learn to play chess or juggle?   The real core seems to be something new or unfamiliar or something challenging 15 minutes a day.  That isn’t too much to ask to improve your mind as you get older.

>>MARK:  We are a society that would much rather take a pill and let that do it for us.  You hear a lot about supplements out there that make you sharper.  Do those things work?

>>MIKE:  I think you’re right.  People want to look for the Viagra of the mind.  Nutrition is really important.  I tried to get to the essence.  I asked neuroscientists what they take, what supplements do they take.  Multivitamins, multiminerals on a daily basis.  It is worth looking into probiotics, D3, fish oil.  It is pretty simple, strong research validation to all of these things.  As well as just some dietary practices that will enrich the quality of your life.  Like taking time to be mindful and enjoy dining.  Share a meal with someone you like or love on a regular basis.  Some of the best news my readers are thrilled to hear is there is reams of research that, in moderation red wine and dark chocolate are really good for you.  As is that cup coffee in the morning.

>>MARK:  That is outstanding news.  There’s a whole lot more out there.  Folks, it is in of book called “Brain Power”.  It is written by the very compelling, Michael Gelb.  I wish we had more time.  We would like to get you back on because we have many more questions.  Thanks for spreading the good news, and folks check out the book.  It is a good read.  <music>

Up next he’s been described as a cross between Hemingway and Twain.  But it wasn’t until he was diagnosed with prostate cancer that one of America’s best storytellers tells his most heartfelt story.  Welcome back to Growing Bolder radio.  We are your hosts, Mark Middleton and Bill Shafer, and this segment is for everyone of us because sooner or later, unfortunately, we are all most likely going to have that experience of having a doctor look at us very earnestly and say, I am sorry there is something that is not quite right.

>>BILL:  That is what happened to our next guest.  As a matter fact, right before he turned 65 the doctor told him he had prostate cancer, and that led to 46 intensive radiation treatments.  Interestingly he happens to be an accomplished author.  Consider the greatest storyteller in America today, the closest thing we have to a living, breathing Mark Twain type.  He decided to create what has turned out to be a wonderful, warm, funny and insightful look into life in a book called the “Great Northern Express; A Nice Journey Home”.  Let’s say hi to Howard Frank Mosher.

>>HOWARD:  Thank you very much.  I’m delighted to be here

>>BILL:  What an interesting inspiration for a book.  Tell us about how that turned out.

>>HOWARD:  On my way to the post office about five years ago ,expecting as always that I would find a check for $1 million, even though I think the last check I found was a royalty statement for about $18.45.  As you said, I discovered a notification from my doctor indicating that my prostate blood work was off.  So I had 46 radiation treatments.  I decided to do something I wanted to do for a long time.  That is set out on a 100 store, 150 city book tour.  To visit the independent bookstores of America.  And I wrote my new book.  Promoted my new book.

>>BILL:  That Jack Carowack, thing.

>>HOWARD:  ONE of my favorite authors, yes.  50 years ago.  I went in a 20-year-old, falling apart Chevy, that I nicknamed the loser cruiser.  With 280,000 miles on it.  It held up pretty well and I did spend the rest of that summer and into the fall, crisscrossing the country and visiting the great independent bookstores.

>>BILL:  Don’t take this the wrong way, but sometimes when bad things happen to great writers, we all benefit from it.  You have the ability to share with us your observations, and put in an eloquent way the lessons that we need to learn in our lives.  What did you learn from this trip?

>>HOWARD:  The trip, besides expanding my limited readership beyond maybe a few thousand readers, gave me an opportunity to think about my life as a writer in northern Vermont.  I live in a little remote northeastern corner of Vermont called the Northeast Kingdom and most of my books are set there.  As I said in “The Great Northern Express”, the trip gave me an opportunity to reflect on, not only what I loved to die for but what I love to live for.  My life in the kingdom, my writing, reading, my family, and in that respect it was a very illuminating trip.

>>BILL:  Everybody is always looking for great reads.  And I’m telling you folks, you have to look up some of his stories because you have written a dozen books there that are just loved.  The Associated Press compared you to the best of Mark Twain.  The LA Times said you they combined Hemingway and Thoreau, and they would have you.  No one says a thing like that about anybody, yet you are sort of like the undiscovered author out there.

>>HOWARD:  The Hemingway and Thoreau quote has always amused me.  I love both writers, but I have always wondered what it is in me that motivated someone to compare me to a misanthrope and a drunk.

>>BILL:  You answered your own question there.

>>HOWARD:  Most of my books are set right here in the Northeast Kingdom.  I came here 50 years ago, immediately out of college, thinking I would teach in a local high school for a year or two, save some money and then move on to bigger and better things.  What I found was a gold mine of stories nobody had ever told before.  Here I still am telling them 50 years later.

>>MARK:  It isn’t unusual Frank now that I hear you, that you and Bill Shafer would be kindred spirits.  Because he is a three-time storyteller of the year in electronic journalism.  It really does seem like storytelling, storytellers; it is kind of Renaissance.  People are appreciating stories.  What is it about the power of the story that is appealing to not only individuals, but corporations today?

>>HOWARD:  I think they connect us to a world that might otherwise be slipping away in this electronic era.  Good stories connect us to family.  They connect us to nature.  You mentioned Mark Twain and Hemingway.  It is impossible to imagine Twain without the Mississippi and the natural world or Hemingway without the natural world of fishing and hunting that he wrote about.  Good stories often connect us to communities.  One of the toughest books I had to write was my novel “Stranger in the Kingdom”,which was about a racist incident that happened just up the street in my tiny village, in northern Vermont.  It was the kind of thing you might think would happen in Mississippi in the 1930s but it happened in recent times in Vermont.  The story was a connection to a time and a place and an important way of life.  That needed to be revealed.

>>BILL:  Talking to Howard Frank Mosher, a fantastic author.  You need to check out his work.  You talk about, in this latest book, you summed up what it was you wanted to fight through your prostate cancer treatments to live for.  Now that you are through them, what is life like for you?  Is it as fulfilling as you hoped it would be?

>>HOWARD:  Yes.  I am doing essentially the same thing I have done all my life.  I started a couple new novels.  I sometimes joke that I write all day and read all night, and I do.  One of the great benefits of the book tour was in visiting the terrific independent bookstores of the country where I was able to talk, not just about my new book, but books in general, with independent booksellers who sell books the old-fashioned way which one independent bookstore uses as its model; the independent book sellers read books.  What I was given by the diagnosis was something infinitely better than $1 million.  I was given some time to continue the things I love to do, read and write.  And live in the Northeast Kingdom.

>>BILL:  The book is called “The Great Northern Express”.  But if you want to experience true storytelling at its best, check out any of the books by Howard Frank Mosher and you are absolutely going to want to read them all.  The latest one about how his battle with prostate cancer only increased his resolve to want to live.  And once he got better he didn’t just sit there and say here I am.  He went on a tour to check out all those places that make the area of this country as individual and as great as it is.  Howard Frank Mosher.  Thank you very much.

Coming up, she’s the voice of autism all over the world.  We will visit with the amazing Temple Grandin.  Music.

>>MARK:  I am Mark Milton.  Bill Shafer’s alongside, and you are listening to one of the most empowering shows on the radio.  A little something we call “Growing Bolder”.  When our next guest was 4, her mother knew there was something wrong.  She rarely uttered a word, she hated to be touched and she would frequently go into a rage.  Her parents were told she was brain damaged and recommended moving her to a facility.

>>BILL:  That was back in the 50s.  We knew nothing about autism back then, but it is so common, chances are you know somebody born with it.  Our next guest has gone on to be the most famous autistic person in the world.  She is an award-winning author, speaker, professor, PhD and a scientist whose ideas revolutionized the humane handling of livestock.  HBO even made a movie about her incredible life that nearly won every award in its category.  Hey Doctor, how are you?

>>TEMPLE:  It is just wonderful to be here

>>BILL:  What a great introduction there.  I’m sure there are times when your parents thought what would happen to their little girl?

>>TEMPLE:  Well fortunately my mother got some very good advice from a neurologist at Boston’s Children’s Hospital.  He recommended speech therapy school, and when I went to speech therapy school she could see I was starting to make some progress. The people who wanted to put me in institutions, she had to fight them off.  She could see that I was gradually learning to speak and making progress.  I can’t emphasize enough the importance of early educational intervention.  If you have a two or three-year-old child that is not talking, sitting and rocking, the worst thing is to do is to do nothing.

>>BILL:  Is there a set course for people who have autism?  Or is it still if you happen to get the right therapist, you will get the right treatment?  That you really have to be careful where you go.

>>TEMPLE:  Autism comes in 2 degrees of severity.  Very mildly autistic., the kind that are geeks and nerds, like Steve Jobs or Einstein who didn’t talk till age 3.  Many schools would label Einstein as autistic.  But they have much more severe.  No language, some have epilepsy or other medical problems on top of that.  You have disorders that range from a benefit for people in Silicon Valley who have some degree of autism.  A little bit of autism, you take out the social circuits, you get circuits for figuring out how to build stuff like radio stations.

>>BILL:  Dr. Grandin, that no doubt explains, at least to some degree, the title of your latest book.  It is called “Different, Not Less”.  It takes us into how we can improve the lives of people with autism, aspbergers or even ADHD.  You mentioned the importance of early intervention.  Can you give us a sense of what the book is about?

>>TEMPLE:  The book is 14 stories of people that were diagnosed with autism, aspbergers ,or ADHD later on in life.  They mainly got diagnosed later in life because their marriages were having problems.  The relationships had problems.  But all of the people of the book, and all write in their own words, we had to do a lot of editing, describing their childhood school experiences, early jobs and their employment and their relationships.  One of my big concerns now is we have a lot of young people that aren’t learning work skills.  All 14 people had childhood jobs.  They learned work skills, things like paper routes, working in stores, selling chocolate, Easter candy, and getting out and doing things in the work world.  Their lives were difficult.  It wasn’t easy.  But they had been employed all their lives.  I’m a big proponent of getting middle school kids doing some work things.  Walk dogs fix computers for people, make reading cards and sell them.  Work at a farmers market.  Those are all good things for teenage kids to do.  This book will be helpful to anybody that has a fully verbal child labeled autism, asperger’s or ADHD, especially when they get into middle school.  The title of the book is “Different, Not Less”.

>>BILL:  One of the things I hope people do is, I hope everyone reads all of your books.  Because they are not really just about one topic, they kind of are fascinating because they are about how we as people think.  You see things in such a different way than most of us.  I would love to get your thoughts on growing older or aging.  Some of us fear it, some of us ignore it and some of us embrace it.  How do you see it?

>>TEMPLE:  A person with autism is a bottom-up thinker.  So you form your conclusions about things by certain internets inside your head.  Instead of comparing things you are experiencing now from things in the past.  In bottom-up thinking, the more information you fill the database with the better I think.  The more web pages I have inside my head, my search engines to surf.  HBO movie did a good job of showing people how I think in pictures.  Some people think in pictures like me.  They are good with things like art or industrial design.  I absolutely couldn’t do algebra.  Others are good in math.  They have trouble in reading.  The third type is really good at words.  They’d make good journalist.  I’ve interviewed some good radio journalists that were on the spectrum.  Mathematicians, they are your computer programmers, engineers, physicists and your statisticians.

>>BILL:   We are talking with Dr. Temple Grandin, an award-winning, author, speaker, professor, scientist whose life story was told in an award winning HBO film.  Dr. Grandin, you make it clear that the last thing we want to do is prevent autism.  Why so?

>>TEMPLE:  A little bit of it and you have a computer programmer in Silicon Valley or you get van Gogh.  I wrote about van Gogh in an earlier book, “Thinking in Pictures”.  With too much of it you get a very severe handicap and the genetics of autism is extremely complicated.  We’re talking about little variations in the genetic code on many, many different genes.  A little bit of the trait, you take up the social and some get an advantage.  Who do you think made the first stone spear?  It wasn’t the yak, yak social people around the campfire.  Too much of the trait and you get a very severe handicap.

>>BILL:  What do you say to people autism who say that autism is the result of vaccinations that people shouldn’t have gotten?  Is there any truth to that?

>>TEMPLE:  There is a very big genetic component of autism, but there is increasing evidence that some environmental insults can interact with the susceptible genetics. We should look at pesticides, plasticides, endrocrine disruptors.  They can interfere with reproduction.  There is a lot that is not known.  There is a big genetic component, but there are some environmental components to on the genetics.

>>BILL:  Temple you have already in life done what some of us, all of us aspire to.  You have made the world a better place.  You have been here on a number of levels.  What do you hope the rest of us can learn from the journey that your life has taken you on?

>>TEMPLE:  First of all, to achieve something is a lot of hard work.  When you’ve read the “Not Less” book, people work really hard to do the things they do.  People’s jobs in the book range from the high level computer, doctor, veterinarian, to things like tour guide, and retail store employee.  I wanted to have a broad range, another person is psychiatric assistant.  So I had broad range of skills.  It was hard work.  To achieve something is hard work.  You have to work on something for a sustained basis, for a long period of time.  It doesn’t happen overnight.  On my cattle handling stuff, I worked 25 years working on getting people to stop rough handling.  I started working with people to design better equipment and then you have to work on managing it right.

>>BILL:  Let me interrupt you a second point out to people, you have become such a great inspiration to everybody that we all feel like we know you.  And all of your books contain different elements that we can learn about each other in life and about how our minds work.  I want to remind people that your latest book is “Different, Not less”.  More information is available at TempleGrandin.com.  What a great visit.  With Dr. Temple Grandin.

It is incredible how fast an hour of can fly by when you’re talking about ways that put the spark back in your life.  This is a program where we prove that hope and inspiration are qualities that never fade because opportunities do surround us.  No matter what your circumstances, there are changes you can make to lead a more rich and vibrant, fulfilling life.

>>MARK:  The fun does not stop there.  In the coming weeks, you will hear from more people who are not just talking the talk, they are living their lives in a way that defies conventional wisdom.  People who are getting everything out of life they can.  Like 70-year-old NASCAR driver, Morgan Shepherd.  And how about retired math teacher Nadine O’Connor, who is in the Masters Track Hall of Fame, and in her 70s and is kicking butt?  People still setting goals, breaking records, seeking new adventures.  The good news is any of these guests could be you if you just get out there and start growing bolder.  Give it a try, you might just like it.

>>BILL:  Those are great examples coming in the future, but in the past, I wish there was a way we could hear some of those too.

>>MARK:  Have you heard about the “Growing Bolder” radio network?  On live, 24- seven.  It streams all of these interviews constantly and never stops.

>>BILL:  You mean that is what happens when I go to growingbolder.com, click the radio tab and then click the listen/ live button?

>>MARK:   Yes, take it with you.  Put it on your iPad, take it when you run, take it to the gym.

>>BILL:  There you go folks.  We’ll see you online. if we don’t see you there, will see back here very soon.  <music>

(end of event)


Podcast: How to Get Started in Self-Publishing

How to Get Started in Self-Publishing
with Johnny B. Truant. Dave Wright, and Sean Platt

Podcast #1 in the Self-Publishing Podcast Series

April 26, 2012

Link to podcast

Transcript provided by:
Speech Text Access LLC

Now here are your hosts, the three whitest guys in podcasting, Johnny, Sean, and Dave

>>JOHNNY:  Hey everyone and welcome to the Self Publishing Podcast.  The Podcast that is all about how to get your words out into the world without contending with agents, publishers, or any of the other gatekeepers in traditional publishing.  I’m Johnny B. Truant and my co-hosts, as always, are the very patient duo of David Wright and Sean Platt.  Trying here for the 17th, 18th, 19th maybe 20th take of our inaugural episode of the Self Publishing Podcast.  Have you had enough of this podcast guys?

>>DAVE:/>>SEAN:   Publishing is far easier than podcasting.  We put out three books in the times that we’ve been trying to put out one podcast.

>>JOHNNY:   During the last restart Dave was clicking away and recording and writing new episodes of “Yesterday’s Gone”.

>>DAVE:    We keep praying it’s funny.  We can crank out 20,000 words a week but we can’t get a podcast out.  For anything.

>>JOHNNY:  That story is, the three of us have been talking about doing a podcast for a couple of months now.

>>DAVE:   Eight years.

>>JOHNNY:   And Sean and Dave were talking about it for a long time and then I came in with what I thought was a really brilliant idea because Sean and I had recorded a call-in 6 to 8 months ago.  As I was listening to it again, as I do in my narcissist ways of listening to my own stuff again.  I e-mailed Sean and said, dude we should do a podcast.  And he said that’s of really good idea that I kind of already had.  So I weaseled my way into this one, and we have tried for several weeks now to record; and the last thing was Sean sounding something like, how would you describe that?

>>SEAN:  I was a Cylon, apparently.

>>JOHNNY:  We are incapable of working the technology.  We have no business being on the Internet.

>>DAVE:   I think the Cylon actually sounded kind of cool, but it was lost in translation.

>>SEAN:   It wasn’t listener friendly though.

>>JOHNNY:  It depends on the listener.  We have kind of a janky set up here.  We are all on video so we can see each other and be like we are buddies hanging out the same room, but the video will go (out) it will be like, dammit.
I guess we should actually transact some business.  We will talk about how to get started on podcasting.  We have a lot to say.  Authorities in the field of podcasting.  If you don’t know me, my name is Johnny B. Truant.  My site is Johnnybtruant.com.  These guys have a lot more of a story and a lot wider reach in publishing.  Would you like to go through what you have going on and all that?

>>DAVE:  We’ve done a collective inkwell where we have dark fiction, horror, sci-fi, fantasy sort of stuff.  Last summer we did “Yesterday’s Gone”, a post apocalyptic serial, came back for season two.  That did even better.  Now we are putting out a couple more stories and we will hit “Yesterday’s Gone Again” in June.

>>JOHNNY:  My favorite part of the story is the way Dave says horror.  It sounds like Dave says dark whore.  How did you get into this mess with Dave, Sean?

>>SEAN:  Dave and I met two weeks into my online adventure. I stole his domain and he called me up.  We’ve been working together ever since.  We tried to do the serialized fiction thing a couple of years ago.  I wouldn’t say that we failed, but we did.  We did a good job serializing it but we tried doing it on a blog with one new episode every week, but that didn’t work.  What made this really possible was doing stand-alone episodes and putting them up on Kindle.  Dave and I worked together forever, and in between our first crack at serialization and our second one last summer, we did a lot of stuff from freelance editing, copy, web design, anything.  Just biding our time until we could get back into publishing.
Last summer we had what ended up being a good idea.  We didn’t want to serialize one book.  That was one of the reasons we failed the first time was, we were taking the book and breaking it into parts.  When we first went to serialize “Yesterday’s Gone”, we heard from a lot of writers, successful writers too; the cry was you can’t make serialization work.  It won’t work.  They are right because the people who are trying to do it before, were serializing a novel.  And people don’t want to wait in pieces to get their novel.  So what we did was deconstruct it.  We broke it apart and modeled what we were doing, not after other books, but after serialized scripted television.  We start each episode with a bang up opening and we end on a cliffhanger.  We made it work because we weren’t following the Kindle crowd; we were following the JJ Abrams crowd.  As Dave said, we put out a new book every week.  In addition to what we’re doing with the collective inkwell I have another publishing company called the Sterling House and we also do book a week.  We are doing three books per week.  We are nonfiction but we are moving into fiction next month.

>>JOHNNY:  Just so that everybody knows.  You are doing three books a week?  I’m in the same position, and the reason this is fun is that Sean and Dave are basically one guy.  And that’s fair to say right?  I’m on the other side of that.  I have one title.  I have one novel, and I have done something that Sean suggested I do.  I took some of my blog posts that stand alone as epic content.  They would stand as essays.  I put those up.  But I just have the one book.  I’m working on something else but who knows how long that will take to get done.  So we are trying to cover the spectrum here from just getting something published, to use it as a moneymaking vehicle, to give voice to your artistic sentiments, to you want to publish a book a week.

>>SEAN:  That is the thing, that there is no right way to do it.  There are things that work and some things that don’t.  Between the three of us we know what is working, at least for us right now, and what doesn’t work.  When you first start out you really want to do that.  I don’t want to mess up.  What can I do, how can I avoid the common mistakes.  There are mistakes that will cripple you.  Whether you’re doing a book a week or a book a year, you want to avoid those mistakes.

>>JOHNNY:  What drew you guys to this?  First of all this isn’t, we debated over the name of the podcast, Self-publishing Podcast, because Sean doesn’t like the idea of being self-publishing.  I have another friend who likes the idea of digital publishing.  You guys were literally doing self-publishing before there was any of this Kindle model in place to make it easier for you.  You have been working on this for quite a while.

>>SEAN:  We have been writing a while.  Generally we didn’t start self-publishing digitally until Kindle started taking off.  We didn’t catch it right in the beginning, but right around the time everyone was talking about it; and it started to work well.  We originally were going to do a print on demand sort of thing.  The prices of print on demand are insane and almost impossible to build an audience that way.  Kindle provides a very cheap and easy way to build your audience.  That is what we’ve done, and so far that is working very well.

>>DAVE:  We actually tried to do print for our first several books.  They were like 1% to 2% percent of our total sales.  And they were a headache.  Formatting for digital is more difficult than formatting for Kindle.  And your profit margins are small.

>>JOHNNY:  Do you think most of the power is in, do you think it makes sense to focus on Kindle for one.  Some of my history is that, Sean first got me thinking about this, and then Dave because they’re basically one guy, as we have already established.  I thought it was an easy thing to do so when I launched mine, there’s a way to have something up on Amazon as a freebie, you have to make it exclusive.  What happened was a lot of people, more than you would have thought, were like oh I have a Nook, which is a Barnes & Noble reader, and Barnes & Noble has its own store which uses a different format than the Kindle store does.  They wanted a different E-pub reader which is different from the format that the Nook uses.  They would say well it’s exclusive on Amazon.  You guys are in multiple places, right?

>>DAVE:  Most of our titles are Amazon only at the moment.  We are doing Kindle direct select.  If you are exclusive with them for 90 days you can have your book free for five days during that time, and also people can borrow it for free who are prime members on Amazon.  That helps build your audience when you’re able to give it away for free.  You can’t put a book out for free on Amazon unless you’re doing that.  It is complicated in other ways.  But after the 90 days we will go to Barnes & Noble, Apple and other stores like that and releasing on there.  But the books we have put on both, the sales on Amazon are 95% of everything.  Amazon really is the big deal right now.  I’m sure that will change over time, but right now we are doing what works for us right now and reach as many readers as we can.  And hope that the people that are on Nook and others will be patient and discover us a little later.  It isn’t like we have a shortage of things to offer them over time; it will take time to catch up.

>>SEAN:  One of the mistakes we made was putting “Yesterday’s Gone 1” out and then realized we have to take advantage of this.  So “Yesterday’s Gone 2” had to wait.  Now it is the precedent we’re setting.  I would compare it to back in the day if you were a big video game player, you would have to wait for the Japanese imports to get over here.  If there was a game you really wanted to play but didn’t have a domestic release yet.  We will have to delay our releases because it didn’t fit our models to put everything out at one time.  But you can always tell your readers, you can get a Kindle app for any tablet, any smart phone, PC, Mac so it isn’t like they can’t read it.  It may not be their favorite way to read it, but they can, it’s not difficult.

>>JOHNNY:  I don’t think they have a Kindle app for the Nook yet.

>>SEAN:  Yes that’s the hiccup; they can either wait or they can read it on a different device.

>>DAVE:  I will read to people if they call me up.   I will read it to them over the phone.  (laughter)

>>JOHNNY:  I’ve made the exact same promise.  But when I did Kindle, I am known as a blogger, not a writer.  Basically I guess this is when I did my book release, which was really popular; people were interested in it.  I introduced a lot of people to the idea of Kindle.  People were used to traditional books or knew that it was out there and had never done before.  It was based on a lot of hearing back from people.  The thing about Kindle is if you have no device, no I-pad, no Kindle, you can get it on your mobile phones.  I know people read my book on a mobile phone.  It is its own unique breed of torture.  You can read it on it the site and that is something a lot of people don’t know.  As I go forward one of the things I do is try to educate on how to consume my stuff.  It isn’t available in a format everyone understands, like a book.  I am watching them nod.  This is the problem with having video; it is actually a detriment because we are communicating nonverbally.

>>SEAN:   Dave, say something funny!

>>DAVE:  Was there a question in that?

>>JOHNNY:  What am I, a fucking interviewer?  Come on guys participate.  Take off on it, we have three of us.

>>SEAN:  I think part of the magic is that it is new, not just for the reader but for the writer.  It is staggering how many questions are out there.  Dave and I really found that out this last year that so much of the stuff we are doing is so brand-new.  We didn’t have anyone to answer our questions.  We were doing things and asking questions about things that hadn’t been done yet.  So it is really hard to find those answers.  You have to figure it out yourselves and then figure out if it’s right or wrong.  Eight or nine months now we have really been at this.  We are really hitting a stride and figuring out what serves our readers best and us best.  They are almost the same thing.

You have to put your reader first then you will eventually win.  It really is that simple.  It doesn’t matter how good you are as a writer, if you don’t have readers who will not only read but champion you, then you’re done.  There is too much competition out there.  If you love your readers and you give them stuff that they really, really want, you give it to them in a way that is easy to consume, and feels good when they consume it, and they are happy enough to share with their friends; that is a great set up.

>>JOHNNY:  As we are listening to all of these things that we’re doing, and all the different formats, a lot of folks come into this; here is my Kindle story.  I wrote a book 12 1/2 years ago.  I wrote the query letters, and perfected my first three chapters and there are all these things, if you read Reader’s Digest, or how-to-write guides, or Writer’s Market, or any of these books that explain how you can get published, there is a formula to follow.  You send query letters to agents and agents say yes, that is awesome.  Send me the first 3 chapters.  This is great.  I made those rounds.  I got nowhere with it.  I collected dozens and dozens of rejection letters and tried again.  Once or twice I sent someone some chapters and they said it was awesome, but no. Screw you, dude.

>>SEAN:  You can use the same amount of time right now to write another book.

>>JOHNNY:  Right

>>SEAN:  Dave and I found that the best way to market the book you have, is to write another book.

>>JOHNNY:  There is more that we can talk about in other episodes.  Filtering yourself and your drafts and how important it is to get out there versus working on perfecting.  I mean in my case I had given up on that book.  It was in a box in my closet.  It could not have been a bigger cliché; several drafts of it too, three or four drafts.  And I started hearing about this.  I got the book, “The War of Art”, which I think every writer should read.  Stephen Pressfield.  That book made me say I have to do this.  I know about the self-publishing thing on Kindle, I don’t know how to do it, but I got the book.  It is in the electronic format.   I just need to figure out what you have to do.  Someone in my shoes, and this is you guys being Kindle ninjas at this point.  I could throw e-books at you and you would dodge them and catch them in your teeth.  How would you get started if you are me back then?  Or if you are just wanting to write a book because you can get paid to write fiction now.

>>SEAN:  The first thing I would do is get someone to read it.  That perspective.  We never know how good or bad our stuff is until someone else can shine a light on it.  You don’t want a family member or friend to read, it you really need someone to tell you it sucks if it sucks.  If you have something decent, then you want to take it from good to great.  Because good enough isn’t.  There’s way too much competition.  Right now, we were at a time a few years ago when there weren’t many blogs, and you could put a blog out and make that blog blow up just by doing a great job.  Those days are over.  There are so many authors, there is a flood.  You have to be better, you have to be great.  So good enough is not going to cut it.  Once you have that manuscript, you want to take it to an editor.  Not just a copy editor.  That’s not what you want.  A line editor who can bring the best possible story out.  Once you have that, revise it, make it as good as you can, and then send it to a copy editor.  So it really is bulletproof.
Because you will get torn apart if your book has typos.  Every book has typos.  Harry Potter has typos.  The difference between your book and their book is that they are looking for typos in your book.  No one is looking for typos in Harry Potter.  None.  It will get by.  Your book won’t.  If it has typos, you will get called on it because you always have the stink of self-publishing on you.  You really need to be sure you’re giving your work your all.  Dave and I were really fortunate because we have one another to bounce ideas off of and copy off of.  I tend to write a little bit too visual.  Dave is like what the hell is your problem?  <laughter>

>>JOHNNY:  I believe the term is flowery, not visual.

>>SEAN:  I like the word visual way better, dude.  And Dave’s writing is a little drier than mine, so I flower it up.  Then he cleans that.  So we act as one another’s line editor and we still send it to an editor.  At Sterling and Stone, we actually have a process where we take the manuscript and it goes through several phases.  It comes in as a raw draft, I then kind of polish that draft, then it goes to line editor.  A line editor goes through it and after that it goes to a copy editor it before it goes to final.  Then there are four people seeing it from outline all the way to finished draft.   Because again, good enough isn’t.  It has to stand out.  First what I would do if you’re one of those writers, and there are a lot of us out there who have something either in our closet or collecting digital dust on your hard drive, get it out.  Don’t just think that it is enough to get it out and you can get it to Kindle tomorrow.  Your reader deserves more than that.

>>JOHNNY:  By the same token Sean, where do we think the line on that is?  I think there’s a lot to be said.  I don’t want to be to imply you can be sloppy because your point is, don’t be sloppy.  You can get it out and you don’t need to be a total…

>>SEAN:  You can get out, and one of the magical things about Kindle 2 is that you can update.  So you can get it out.  So it is at least there and then work on it and then upload a new version of it and that is fine, but the bottom line is your reviews will kill you.  If you don’t get any reviews and then you get one star review because your book is crap, you won’t sell any more.  It will murder it in its track.

>>JOHNNY:  Because it is one star and therefore your averages is one even though there is only one.

>>SEAN:  Yes.  And the other side is that a lot of people will come out with their self- published book, and they get their aunt Josephine and their uncle Bob to give them five-star reviews, but then two things happen.  Either these people don’t normally review, and if you have other reviewers, there is a community on Amazon who exists solely to tear apart self-published authors who are gaming their reviews.  So that it is very difficult.  You can’t solicit reviews, you need honest reviews and if you get honest reviews that are shit, you are just dead in the water.  So I hear what you’re saying.

>>DAVE:    I have a suggestion.  If you are just starting out and you’re not sure you’re good or not, and you want to get it out there, put out there, you don’t want to waste any time.  I would suggest writing under a pseudonym at first.  If it is bad, then use another one next time.  But one of these will catch fire.  Just choose a name you don’t want to be stuck with forever like Sean Platt.   I mean, good God, what was he thinking?       <laughter>

>>SEAN:  Yea, my parents really shit the bed on that one

>>JOHNNY:  If you want to get an audience and you think your stuff is close to good enough but not sure, I’d say put it out there.  Put it out with a pseudonym and you can do that.  You can have different names on Amazon.  Read the Kindle boards and you can figure out how to do that.  Just do that and keep at it.  Don’t wait forever to write a book until it’s perfect because it won’t ever be perfect.

>>SEAN:  You will know no one is ever perfect.  Dave and I work at a ridiculous pace.  A book a week is ridiculous and I’m a big believer in ready, fire, aim, but I also want as much as I can to preserve my work and my legacy, and be known for quality work.  There is a difference between rushing and being careless.  At the very minimum, get a second opinion, and you can’t go without an edit.  You have to have somebody else edit your work.  You can’t edit it yourself.  Even if you are an editor.

>>JOHNNY:  I am wondering if I am honor bound at this point to say I’ve never had anybody else edit my work.

>>SEAN:  I don’t know, I would highly suggest against that.

>>JOHNNY:  Not everybody is as awesome as I am though. <laughter>

>>SEAN:  That is true, but

>>DAVE:  His ego edited it.

>>JOHNNY:  I’m quite hard on myself.  I don’t mean to imply that…I went back and looked at it and was like this really is suck ass.  I was my own asshole editor.  But I see what you mean; most people should not do that.  Maybe I shouldn’t, I don’t know.

>>SEAN:  At the very least you want a copy edit.  You can e-Lance and find somebody; you could go to Fiver. I found editors on Fiver.  They will edit 2000 words for $5.00.  You won’t spend that much but there are two things you need to survive in the self-publishing game and that is a solid edit and a good cover.  If you think you can make your cover in Microsoft paint, I wish you all of the luck in the world.  You will have a really hard battle.

>>JOHNNY:  At this point I’m going to leave because I didn’t get a copy editor, I’d didn’t have a line edit, I did the cover myself.  I didn’t do it in Paint though.  I did a pretty good job.  And actually I tried to hire somebody, I really did, but the dude wouldn’t get back to me.  I was like, well, fuck you man.  I’ll just do it myself.  But I agree you need a good cover because that is the first thing.  I think we’ve all gone through, not traditional bookstores, but if you’ve ever looked through the Kindle, there are some covers that are, everybody judges books by covers. I found my son the other day, and he is into these Magic Tree House books. It’s a series when people have kids.  He is going through them and there are 100 of them. I wish I could show you visually.  He pulls them off the shelves, looks at them, puts them back; like 2 seconds per book.  And I walk by him and am like, are you judging those books by the covers. You aren’t supposed to do that. <laughter>

>>SEAN:  Yes anyone who says you don’t judge a book by his cover doesn’t understand human nature. Of course we judge books by their cover. That is your one shot, your product, your product description, those are really important because if you can’t grab the reader, there are 99 others that will grab them immediately.  You need that cover to look good.  This is an area were Dave and I are fortunate because our partnership works very well for what we need to do.  Dave is a visual guy.  He used to be a cartoonist.  He does a great job with our covers.  So that isn’t an out-of-pocket expense.  We pay out-of-pocket for edits every week, but we never have to pay for our covers.  But if we are paying for covers every week, that would be harder to do.

>>DAVE:  We wouldn’t be writing a book a week

>>SEAN:  That’s probably true.

>>JOHNNY:  I was going to pay $400 for mine and when I did it myself I liked the cover.  And I was like, sweet, I just saved 400 bucks.

>>SEAN:  At Sterling and Stone we did all the digital writer books.  We had a cover artist who made a general look that each of the books could be adapted to, which makes sense.  It is kind of what Dave does for each of our serials, but they are a little more individualized.  These are a color and icon tweak and that is it.  And the title is changed.  But they are very, very similar.  That way we only had to pay for cover once and then we pay a very small fee for each one to be tweaked each week.  And that’s scalable.

>>JOHNNY:  The thing about cover though is that you are setting up a mood for the person who will read the book.  And when you have a cheap, horrible cover, they are expecting a horrible book.

>>DAVE:  Unless they are severely open-minded.  But when I see these listings for what is free, and I see all of their awful cover  I think I am not going to read that book.  And that makes me a bastard.  And maybe it is a great book inside, but I won’t read it.  And if I’m not going to read it a lot of other people won’t either.  You want to set it to where your book looks as close to a professional book, a mainstream published book, as you can.  As you are able to afford, as you are able to do, whatever the case.  Just try your best.  You definitely want more opinions on your book cover than just yours.  A lot of people think they have an idea of what looks good.  There is even a blog out there that they actually,… this guy sells his book covers, he sells and services, and it is probably the worst covers I’ve ever seen.  Everything is laughably bad and I feel bad for the guy, I’m obviously not going to say his name or anything, but you need to ask somebody who has a better visual eye than you do.  Whether this book is good or not.  Or the cover is good or not.

>>JOHNNY:  This is probably a controversial point and it is a whole topic in itself, but I think that extends to price, too.  I originally thought, there is a whole school of thought that says, make your books a $.99.  I tell you what, I finally bought a $.99 book and I had to work to give that book a chance.  In my own head.  I said okay, I did pay it so I wanted to read a few pages and see.  But I was so not willing to give the book a chance.  Because I paid $.99 for it.  You price, your serials are that, but that make sense to me.

>>SEAN:  Yes pricing .  We could do four weeks in a row on pricing.  I’m fascinated by it.  A lot of what we did with “Yesterday’s Gone” was based around the funnel and the pricing of it.  It was the first project that Dave and I ever did especially in regard to publishing that was really a perfect coalescing of creativity and smart business.  Because we did build the project around the funnel it was $.99, but $.99 is the worst price.  It really is.  There is a big mistake that a lot of writers make thinking they can go the $.99 route and make money because John Lock did it.  But he sold millions for $.99, but he did it before the flood, before the competition. And he only made a couple hundred thousand dollars from downloads.  It’s not like he made millions of dollars.

>>JOHNNY:  It is not sustainable either

>>SEAN:  Yeah, he’s not on the list now.  He doesn’t have seven titles on the top 10 now.  I think a lot of what John Lock did was amazing, and it kind of helped to shape our ideas.  The bottom line is $.99 is great, but only if you have some place to send them.  $.99 works for us because we are sending our readers somewhere else.  $.99 is not the beginning and end of our relationship.  $.99 is only at the front door.  So we use “free” in exactly the same way.  A lot of authors put up their books for free and say now I will get all this attention.
If your reader loves what you are giving and then you don’t have anything else for them to read, you’re making a big mistake.  All of our $.99 books are always temporary.  We want to reward our most consistent readers, so we make sure that when we put something out there for $.99, our early readers who are reading every week as the serial unfolds, we don’t want to charge them $2.99 an episode.  Because we would be punishing them for reading first and that would be wrong.  So we give them the experience of being able to read the episodes as new for $.99.   But as soon as the season is over and it is available for a full season, we package our episodes, 6 episodes for $4.99.  As soon as that happens, all the $.99 episodes go up to $2.99.

>>JOHNNY:  I sincerely admire what you are doing because I’ve never seen such a strategic and sensible business model put in place for fiction.  So we have a ton we can talk about there.

>>SEAN:  Thank you

>>JOHNNY:  You’re very welcome, it’s inspiring really.  But that having been said, it is probably an advanced strategy.  So let’s say you have gone through and gotten your book ready.  How intimidating did you find the process the first time?  It’s really not that hard of actually getting up there.

>>SEAN:  I’ll let Dave take that

>>DAVE:  I didn’t hear the question.  What was that again?

>>JOHNNY:  You have your manuscript ready and you have a copy edit, that I didn’t do, you have somebody else do your cover, that I didn’t do, and all this stuff.  There are specs by the way it is 900 by 1200 for the dimension.

>>DAVE:  600 by 800 for the smaller cover and then there is another one for the larger cover that you actually upload to the sales product page.

>>JOHNNY:  I guess you would know off the top of your head since you are the graphic guy and you do three books a week.  So you have the cover and you have the manuscript that has been cleaned up.  What is the next step?

>>DAVE:  Well, we use Scribner.  We really like the program a lot.   It compiles it to Moby and E pub formats.  There are other people that do a straight up HTML version.  They want complete hands-on control.  I’m not going to do that.  We put everything in Scribner and organize it that way and uploaded to Amazon.  Or anywhere else we want to.  It is a painless easy process.  When you’re uploading it you want to choose your keywords.  If you are writing post-apocalyptic, you write that in keywords to help people find it.

>>JOHNNY:  So it is simple.  When I did mine, I know that with the essays I put up…. I have a post on my blog called “The Universe Doesn’t Give a Flying Fuck About You”.  It was really popular when it was on my blog.  After doing this call with Sean, I thought I should just put this up on Kindle.  It is one more avenue.  It is $.99 so won’t make me a bunch of money.  It sells surprisingly well with zero marketing.  I never tell people about it because why would I.  It’s on my blog.  Actually I had to take it off because I forgot about that whole exclusivity thing.  It was free so why would I tell anybody.  It sells about three a day.  I never promoted that.  When I put that up, it was literally a Microsoft Word document and you click the upload button.  And it uploads it.  You say here’s your cover and click the upload button for your cover.  You add a few keywords, as Dave was saying.  You add a few categories.
But when I did my book, “The Bialy Pimps”, which by the way, our books, links to our books will be at Selfpublishingpodcast.com/books.  You should look at those because they’re awesome.  When I put that up there, I originally did the Microsoft Word thing.  Word thinks it’s smarter than you.  It is a pain in the ass.  I hate Word.  It does stupid shit.   You have to reverse engineer it.  I actually ended up taking the book and putting it into Scribner.  I write everything in Scribner now.  It is awesome.  Basically with a few configuration settings, you can output an E pub file.  Which is the one you send to people who have a Nook, or you say I want a Kindle file, the Moby file and it is so simple.  You don’t have to screw around with all of that.  If you have something simple you can do a Microsoft Word upload.  You guys go now.

>>SEAN:  Don’t be intimidated.  You can do a few quick Google searches.  The hard part is getting something that is ready to go.  Getting it from, I have a finished document, now what do I do.  That part isn’t hard.  It’s having something that is worth getting up.

>>JOHNNY:  That’s what she said.

>>DAVE:  Other writing advice I see from other writers is don’t promote the first book. Promote it to your circle of people but don’t really push it.  Wait until you have a few books out.  If you have one book and nothing else to buy, then what is the point?  I would rather get somebody’s attention when I have five or six more books to buy.  Because if I just give my book out, if it is cheap or free and people read it and love it and there’s no place else to go, they will forget about me.  There are new writers and new books out every week.  You have to stay in your reader’s heads and make them remember you.  Have something constantly available.  As much as you can.  That is our strategy.  Others might do it a little differently.

>>JOHNNY:  Maybe they just write much better books that you remember after having read just one page. <laughter>

>>SEAN:  We were actually done. We did a book called “Available Darkness”.  The first book we tried to serialize.   We finished it out, we put it up and this was in May of last year.  Maybe June.  Early summer.  We had this book; we took a step back and decided that to market this book, we would have to spend a lot of time and energy marketing this book.  Was it really worth it?  We came to the conclusion that no, we would be better spending our time writing something new.  Multiple things new.  Which is how we came up with “Yesterday’s Gone”, and serializing.  Because we thought if we had multiple titles, that would be what we wanted to promote.  We actually put out the first title, in August, Dave?

>>DAVE:  For “Yesterday’s Gone”?  End of August or early September

>>SEAN:  We put it out July 30.

>>DAVE:  Why did you ask, you Dick? <laughing>

>>SEAN:  I didn’t remember at the time, but I’m quick.

>>DAVE:  Are you quizzing me?   Dammit I was there.

>>SEAN:  We put it out in July, but then in August or September all we did was write the next five episodes.  We ignored that one.  We told a few people it was out there, but we didn’t think it was worth promoting until we had the funnel for the other episodes.  So we wrote episodes 2 through 6, put those up.  Then October 3 was when we actually started our marketing.  We did 50 guest posts and actually, the call that Johnny is referring to, was part of that promotional push last October when we finally had the full season available.  And we had $.99 titles, but we had a $4.99 title also.  Then it was worth promoting.
That is a mistake a lot of authors make is to spend…  You constantly hear the drumbeat that you have to market, you have to market.  And while I totally agree with that, you have to market intelligently.  You only have so many minutes at the end of the day.  So if you are spending 2 hours a day on twitter trying to promote the $2.99 book, you are not going to meet your bottom line.  It makes more sense to have a small catalog of just a few books that you can promote.  Then you’re saying I’m an author, here’s my work, and you will get people who say I love this author; I will buy everything he writes.

>>JOHNNY:  I think it is depends on what your goal is too.  You guys are
gung-ho.  You decided you are fiction writers and you’ll make this work.  I get it and agree with the advice to have multiple titles before you start marketing, however, as someone who writes like a mortal, like a normal human being, who is incapable of putting out three books a week; that advice sucks.

>>SEAN:  Because it is all about your endgame.  If you’re going to be a full-time writer, then that is different.  Your endgame is I want to be a full-time published author.  That is all I want to do.  That is our bread and butter so we need to get to that system as soon as possible.

>>JOHNNY:  If you want full-time money, then you need a specific strategy.

>>SEAN:  If writing and publishing is one thing among many that you are doing, then yes, you can absolutely take your time.  But if it is going to be your full-time career, then you really do need multiple titles, otherwise yes you could be the one person who writes the book that is just huge. Just takes off like “Hunger Games” or “Shades of Gray or “Girl with the Dragon Tattoo”, huge, huge books.  But the odds of that happening are so slim that it just doesn’t make sense to throw yourself behind a single title.  If you are expecting a full-time income from that.  If it is just one thing that you’re doing, one title is plenty.

>>JOHNNY:  If you don’t know me, if this is your first contact with me, I guess I’m an Internet marketer.  I despise that cloak.  I guess I’m a blogger.  I am a decently known blogger.  That is my primary thing.  I do online education, coaching and that sort of thing.  To be able to get anything for my fiction is pretty cool, but the other thing is in my world, and Sean comes out of this world too, we have this idea. This happens with get-rich-quick mentality from internet marketing, you think what you make during launch week is usually what you make.  You think I will launch something and make a bunch of money, but practically speaking, you don’t make anything later because you just had this chunk.
So for me it is a paradigm shift to say this is something that can grow steadily.  Books are more or less evergreen.  A book of fiction, a book like “Catch-22”, was written 40 years ago and people still read it as much today.  My book, I wanted to get it out there and I want to drum up some attention for it, but I’m not marketing hard-core which is what I think is the alternative to what you were saying.  If you want the full-time income you could do one of two things; you could write multiple books and then market intelligently, or just market the hell out of, spend all the time trying to sell that book until it makes a full-time income.

>>SEAN:  People get tired of you.  People don’t want to hear you banging the drum your book all the time

>>JOHNNY:  What so you think about people who collect names, and I know you guys do this, but someone who doesn’t have as much of the machine and collects names on a mailing list and keeps in touch.  It informs them of new products and maybe they have a podcast on the world that their book is in or something like that.

>>SEAN:  That’s a great mechanism that works.  I highly believe in e-mail lists.  It is a very smart way to communicate with your audience.  But I still think it is hard.  As far as all things being equal, the very best marketing engine for writers is Amazon itself.  When KDP’s select first came out last year there were a lot of bitching about it.  A lot of moaning and how terrible it was for authors.  It’s really not if you know how to use it.  If you use it well.  The problem people had was the exclusivity.

>>DAVE:  You go to Target and see an album that is exclusive to Target from a well known artist, and recorded one extra song and packaged it just so it was for Target.  You can do that with your work and be exclusive to Amazon.  And put out somewhere else later.  That is a really great way to market people and think about it not as sales, but getting people on your list, as Johnny said, so when you write your next book you can tell them about it.  And if you did a good job with your book the first time they will be receptive to it.  One thing especially bloggers are good at is the bonding aspect of writing.  That is something that Dave and I actually laugh at, Dean Koontz’s newsletter.

>>JOHNNY:  I thought you were just going to say you laughed at Dean Koontz (laughing)

>>DAVE:  His new letter, he should be embarrassed.  There is no soul to it, there is nothing.  What you can do in your books is connect with the reader.  Tell him why you   wrote the book.  Make a really great author’s note.  If you are a blogger, you know how to do that already.    If you bond with your reader in the back of the book, they will remember you more.  Offer them something free.  Give them a reason to opt in to your list, and once they do, what you can’t do, and it does create another responsibility, you can’t get somebody on your list, ignore them for six months and then have a new book out and then you send them.  You will have some response to that, but it will be low.  Your click through rate will be low because people won’t really care.  You have to make people care.

>>JOHNNY:  We will have to do a subsequent episode on what the hell you just talked about; click through rates and opt in rates and all of that.

>>DAVE:  Yes, we should do a whole episode on that.  And what a funnel is. <joking>  What I was going to say about the mailing list is, don’t start a mailing list until you have something of consistent value to add to send the people.  Like Sean said, if you wait six months to send people an e-mail, they won’t remember who the hell you are.  You want to have something to offer them in the meantime.  And if you aren’t putting out products, you have to think what I will be talking about in this mailing list.  What is relevant to my audience, what are they talking about, what are they doing.   A mailing list is good if you are actually offering value.

>>JOHNNY:  Yes, absolutely.  What are some 101 things?  I went through this not too terribly long ago, getting your manuscript ready and running it by people, getting it up there on Kindle.  You are saying wait till you have multiple things.  But if you’re more casual like me; this podcast is some of my promotional strategy and part of yours as well.  Not that we are suggesting the people podcast.

>>DAVE:  Because they would be competition, those bastards.

>>SEAN:  Here is very quick advice that is universal and smart.  It is a mistake that a lot of writers make; including myself for a couple of years.  Don’t market yourself to other writers.  A lot of writers make the mistake of hanging out with other writers.  I love writers.  The whole reason Digital Writer exists is because I love writers, and helping writers, and taking them from good to great makes me happy.  But I’m not expecting them to buy “Yesterdays Gone” at all.  And I know if I were to lay that expectation I would be disappointed.  You want to go where your readers go.  Dave and I don’t have a lot of time to go to horror forums or any of that stuff.  Our business model is to get as many books written as possible.  (Bless you emphysema.)  I realize that is not a business model that would work for most people.

>>JOHNNY:  I’m muting that, by the way. I just don’t know what the hell you are talking about.    You guys can hear it.  You should see the janky setup we have going on here.

>>SEAN:  If you are only writing one book, I don’t mean to minimize that, if you put it out there, make sure you’re spending time, not with other writers talking about the book you just wrote.  Because guess what, they have just written one too and they don’t care that much about your book, they care about their book.  Go where the readers are, not the writers.  If you wrote a horror book, go to horror forums.  If you wrote a book about dog training, go to people with dogs that are pissing on their rugs, cuz that is where you want to go.

>>JOHNNY:  Where do you find the “dogs pissing on your rugs” forum?  Because I want to join that one.

>>SEAN:  There’s got to be a blog about that.  Dogspissingonmycarpet.com

>>JOHNNY:   There’s a site called Gothsintrees.com.  So there pretty much has to be.

>>SEAN:  Goths pissing in trees?  Wow.

>>JOHNNY:  Probably.

>>DAVE:  You have some strange tastes there, Johnny.

>>JOHNNY:  Well they are just in the trees, not necessarily pissing on them.

>>DAVE:  That’s just a bonus for paying members of the site

>>JOHNNY:  Exactly.  Anything else we want to add for the inaugural episode for getting your writing off the ground?  Any teasers for upcoming stuff or anything more we want to say.

>>SEAN:  Since we are breaking ground here, and this is fresh for us, why don’t we ask listeners if there is something you want to hear us talk about.  Let us know.  We want to talk about what you want to hear.  We want to help as much as possible.  We are figuring this out as we go along.

>>JOHNNY:  There’s a website if you listen to us on iTunes.  I will cover both ends of this spectrum.  If you are listening to it on the website you should sign up in iTunes so you can get them all and subscribe, but if you are listening on iTunes or somewhere else, our site is selfpublishingpodcast.com.  It is a big thing that you can call us.  I will just read that number.  You will not remember it if you’re driving. <joking and speaking over each other>
It is 641-715-3900 extension 406770.  It has to be like Pakistan or something.  You can leave a message with a question, and we will play it on the site and then hopefully answer.  If we don’t think we can answer it then we won’t play it.  We will only play stuff so we can look good basically.

>>SEAN:      Hello, I have a question.  What is the name of the website where people are pissing in the trees?

>>JOHNNY:  Gothsintrees.com.  I don’t know if they are pissing though, let’s just assume maybe projection. <laughter>  You can call us.  Dave still hasn’t gotten me a photo for us.  He made a joke response where he sent a picture of Brad Pitt and then never followed up.  Then sent me a real photo.

>>DAVE:  That’s my real photo. Damn.  The curse of being gorgeous.

>>JOHNNY:  That is it.  The plan is we will do these every day.  We will put out three podcasts a week much like our publishing.

>>DAVE:  One podcast per book.

>>JOHNNY:  It is about two books per podcast, four books, sorry.  So in the time it takes for us to get out the second podcast they will have published four books.  Anything else  to add?

>>DAVE:  Thank you for listening.

>>SEAN:  Yea, I’ve been excited about this for a while, so, I mean it and can’t wait until next time.

>>JOHNNY:  So that is going to be it for the Self Publishing Podcast.  So just check in at selfpublishingpodcast.com, give us a call and have a good time. <music>

(end of event)

Growing Bolder Radio Show: Karen Putz!

March 10th, 2012

Link to radio show

Transcript provided by:
 SpeechText Access LLC

(Music playing)

>>  Hello again everybody, I’m Marc Milton along with Bill Shafer and this is Growing Bolder, the program about attitude, the program about possibility, about realizing that it’s never too late or too early to begin creating the life that you want and today, Bill, we’ve got a very special edition of Growing Bolder.

>>  It’s going to be an interesting one too but for anyone who listens to this show on a regular basis and — we know you’re out there — this show is not about us standing on a soapbox and trying to lecture you or tell you what to do, it’s about sharing the stories of ordinary people who are living extraordinary lives.  It’s their example that really seems to inspire our listeners and viewers all across the nation, and today we’re going to take you on location to introduce you to some of our very favorite people.

>>  And they are all very different people, but they are all growing bolder in their own way, all believing in their dream, believing in themselves, and most importantly believing that it’s never too late to dramatically improve the quality of their life no matter what the challenge.

(Music playing)

>>  When is it too late to return to the passion of your youth?  What if that passion left you disabled?  Well, in the case of Karen Putz it took twenty-five years.  After going to college and raising a family, Karen got inspired to return to barefoot waterskiing.  Even her family told her, “Don’t do it,” but Karen listened to the only voice that she can really hear, the one inside her head.

>>  There’s nothing in the world that Karen Putz loves more than barefoot waterskiing, which is odd because she probably should hate it after what happened when she was just eighteen.

>>  And as soon as I hit the water, I mean, it was a hard slam, I couldn’t do a normal tuck and roll.  I just slammed into the water.  I was like, “Oh, wow.”  I climbed into the boat and I’m like, “Hey, I can’t hear anything.”  My friends are all talking to me and I’m like, there’s no sound coming out at all.

>>  So she waited.  Surely it would return over time.  But days turned into weeks.

>>  And I just started crying.  That’s the day that I realized, okay, maybe this hearing isn’t going to come back.

>>  Karen was completely deaf.  Doctors left no hope of even the smallest recovery.  She was devastated and terrified.  But instead of hiding away she made an important decision:  She would go to college.  Her mom wasn’t so sure.

>>  “How are you going to hear your teachers?”  “I don’t know.”  And she’s like, “You can stay home, get a job, you can live here.  And I thought you know, if I do that, I’m never going to get out of the house.  I was like, “No.  I have to do this.  If I don’t walk through this door, I’m not going to live my life.”

>>  But living in silence was far more difficult than she imagined.

>>  It wasn’t easy.  “For six months all I did was cry.  Every night.  You know, I struggled during the day to try to understand people who were hearing, to try to understand these hands that were flying around in the dorm.  I mean, it’s like being dropped in the middle of Japan and you know, here you are, you’ve got to live with this Japanese language.  It was like, I didn’t understand a word.”

>>  She did everything she could to hide her deafness.  She wore her hair over her ears, avoided people she didn’t know, stayed away from social situations until one day when she simply had enough.

>>  For the first time in my life I put my hair up in a ponytail.  I had never done that.  I’d never ever showed my hearing aid in public till that point.  Got on the bus and I thought everyone was staring at me.  You know, it was an adjustment, but that’s the day that I accepted myself.  I became a deaf person.  A whole new life opened up.  I learned ASL, I met my husband, we got married, we have three deaf and hard of hearing kids and life has been good.  It’s been very good since then.”

>>  Life has been good, but it hasn’t been perfect.  Something was missing.

>>  “The one thing that bugged me was that I gave up my passion, you know, the one thing in life that gave me so much happiness.  I thought I was done doing that.”

>>  Until one day she saw a news feature about Judy Myers, who at 68 is the oldest competitive barefoot skier in the world.  Karen contacted Judy, she invited her to visit the world’s barefoot center.  Karen wasn’t sure but hoped she was ready for that next big step.

>>  What am I doing here?

>>  For the first time in 25 years, she was about to barefoot.

>>  Now the first try, get out there, my feet in the water and I felt seventeen again.  The years literally melted away.  It was like, oh my gosh.  The same old feelings, the passion, I can’t explain it.  You put your feet on the water and you come alive.

>>  It was a feeling that her family and friends did not share.

>>  Everyone was like, “You’re going to hurt yourself, you can’t do this.”  And basically they said, “You’re too old.”  That’s exactly what one family member said to me, “You’re too old to be thinking about this, give it up.”  So you know, when you’re surrounded with people who think you can’t, you think you can’t, until you find somebody who can.  Then your whole world starts opening up.  So when you surround yourself with people who can, then you have that same attitude, you adopt that same attitude.

>>  Even when you wipe out.

>>  So between Judy Myers and barefoot superstar Keith St. Onge who runs the Center, Karen’s feet were in pretty good hands.

>>  Keith, what did I do wrong?

>>  You put your ankles out in front of you.  Feet way out in front of those knees and you just jabbed it in.  That’s what we call the Freddy Flintstone when they put the brakes on their car — when those heels dig in, we go for a ride.  When she’s on the water, the smile just glows.  She’s just always always happy.  When I go back to get her she’s just like a little puppy dog in the water looking up at me going, okay, what do I got to do next?  Always.

>>  I have role models in my life that I didn’t have before who are living life, who are breaking the boundaries.  Meeting Judy was very pivotal in my life, because once I met her and I saw all that she could do, I saw that life ahead of me is wide open.  And when you surround yourself with people who are doing these things, you get this feeling that, hey, I can do it too.

>>  Funny thing about inspiration: sometimes when you provide it for others, it can come right back at you.

>>  What does it feel like that Karen, a total stranger turned her life around because she saw you?

>>  That brings tears to my eyes.

>>  Why?

>>  Because to help somebody like that or to inspire somebody like that and to get them back to their passion and to get them to see they can do it again, I think that’s a real a-ha moment.

>>  Just from seeing a clip of you.

>>  Now you got me crying.  Absolutely.  That’s really inspiring for me when that happens.

>>  You realize the power that you have to change somebody’s life.

>>  Yeah.  And as a teacher I changed a lot of lives, but this was one of the biggest.  One of the absolute biggest.

>>  You gave her her world back.

>>  Absolutely.

>>  Now Karen realizes skiing is not the most important thing in her world, but isn’t it amazing how different your entire outlook can be when you can do what you love?

>>  I think when you find your passion, when it’s something that you really, really want to do in life, you are happy.  I mean, the sport that brought me both happiness and sadness was filling me with happiness yet again.  It’s like, wow.  That’s what happens when you find your passion.

>>  And when you find that passion, sometimes it can even help keep you alive.

>>  That’s a great story, Bill, and there’s probably nobody in the world that is more passionate about barefoot waterskiing than Banana George.  In fact, we were there a few years back when the then ninety-three-year-old Banana skied for the final time and if you think it was easy, think again.

>>  Today you’re going to see history being made because every day Banana George skis is like a new record.

>>  It’s been a few years since we last hung out with Banana George, the most famous water skier in history.  His amazing career has been documented in countless magazines, books and newspapers worldwide for more than four decades.

>>  He’s got a worldwide international audience of all age groups, including us as his neighbors.

>>  But this past year has been tough on George.  He was bedridden with a bad case of pneumonia and the pain and stiffness from six major back surgeries and a broken neck has slowed him down a good bit.  But it hasn’t diminished his desire to do what he loves most.

>>  And I honestly thought after he had some serious problems of the winter health issues that we had seen the last that he was going to barefoot but he called me up and said he wanted to go again, and I said, if you can walk down to the dock, get in your wetsuit and get in this contraption we’re going to pull him in, then we’ll pull you skiing.

>>  And today, with our cameras rolling George makes it to the boat.

>>  Even though I’ve had every one of his doctors and family members call me and tell me this is not a good idea, I’m going to keep him as safe as I can and we’re going to take him out there and this is what he lives to do, and so I’m trying to just help him do what he wants to do most.

>>  Of course I’m worried.  I’m worried every time he goes out on the water.

>>  We’re going to sit him in this contraption like a swing so that if anything does go wrong, I can lift him up out of the water, shut the boat down and bring him down.  One thing that’s really interesting about George is the guy has drowned twice in his life and he’s terrified of the water, which even makes it more amazing that he wants to get out this badly.

>>  I can’t stop him.  Nobody can stop him, so — believe me, I tried ten years ago.  He’s still out there.

>>  The boat quickly backs out George in the swing.  He only has enough strength for one attempt and the clock is ticking.  At age ninety-three, his bare feet are once again on the water.  But as his weight is lowered, he spins and tumbles.

>>  His good friend Moose is in the water in an instant.  A few tense moments later†–

>>  He’s good.

>>  Are you sure you’re okay?

>>  I’m positive.

>>  You’re an animal, George.  You’re an animal.

>>  I had to speed on the water but because he was so light, he didn’t have enough control to hold himself this way and when he started to spin, his wrists are so sensitive that as soon as he gets spun a little bit it hurts so badly he has to let go.

>>  Back in the boat George is disappointed his run didn’t last longer, but is determined there will be more.

>>  It’s a world record.

>>  Back on the shore George is gently helped off the boat.

>>  Believe it or not, the same procedure is used when handling nitroglycerin.

>>  Once inside, he shares a stack of e-mails from all over the world.

>>  “You are an inspiration to people young and old.  My fourth-grade students enjoy learning about your life.  I used you as an example of a famous person that has had a positive impact on the life of others.  Thank you, George.”

>>  I like that.

>>  George gets emotional thinking about his positive impact on others and excited when asked how long he wants to barefoot.

>>  <Laughter>  Forever.

>>  Before we leave, George wants us to see the sign in his kitchen that sums up his philosophy of life, even at age ninety-three:  Do it.

>>  Life is up and down, I think.  I don’t wait for the next thing, but I make the next thing happen.

>>  Even at ninety-three and a half, the guy’s got drive and passion and he loves a challenge.

>>  I’m not growing older.  I am growing bolder.  How do you like that?

>>  We like it a lot.  Banana George is absolutely amazing and in his late 90s doesn’t ski anymore, but still has that incredible passion for life.  This is Growing Bolder.

(Music playing)

>>  Coming up:  No matter what your passion is, it helps to be healthy, to be fit.  How one woman walked her way to wellness, and later:  The two words responsible for a man finding true happiness.

>>  I’m Marc Middleton, this is Bill Shafer.  This is Growing Bolder.  And you know, folks, when it comes to not only the length of your life but more importantly the quality of your life, exercise is key, and they are just about as many different ways to get fit as there are people.

>>  The key is finding something you really enjoy.  For a rapidly growing number of men and women, that means getting up very early and getting both oars in the water.

>>  The moon is up, but not much else.  Coach Laura Rekhi unlocks the secrets to a routine that’s transforming the lives of men and women in the Orlando Rowing Club.

>>  It’s not really a sport, it’s a cult and once you’re in it, you’re in it and you just can’t get rid of it.  It’s pretty wonderful actually.

>>  One of the things we’re beginning to learn is that many times Growing Bolder involves getting up pretty early.

>>  So what makes somebody get up at this hour?

>>  Insanity.

>>  The endorphin rush definitely makes it worthwhile.

>>  Sixty two-year-old Betsy Baker knows exactly why she’s here.

>>  The fitness, the camaraderie and the fact that rowing allows older people to continue to be competitive.

>>  After a quick stretch and a pep talk from the coach†–

>>  We’re going to go from a twenty six, which is your passing rate down to a sixteen full power.

>>  The ballet that is competitive rowing begins.

>>  It’s a total body workout.  It requires every muscle in your body and it requires you to think at the same time.  It takes everything you’ve got.

>>  For the next ninety minutes they give everything they’ve got, struggling silently and enjoying every moment.

>>  From the coach’s boat Laura gives direction and gets back inspiration.

>>  I see women who I hope to be in another twenty, thirty years, so I feel like I get as much out of this as they do.

>>  Some are former rowers but most are new to the sport.  A few are athletes looking for a new challenge.

>>  Somebody one day said that there were a bunch of women just like me:  Aggressive, assertive, crazy.

>>  I’m willing to work really, really hard, which is what I enjoy.

>>  That one hurt a little bit.

>>  As far as aerobics fitness there’s nothing better than this.  It’s very low impact so once you learn how to do this and to get the proper training, you can do this until you’re seventy, eighty, ninety years old.

>>  You have a group to do it with normally, and that’s the best part of all because you make lifelong friends.

>>  It’s quite an amazing thing when you have eight people working at that kind of level in perfect unison.

>>  Just as the sun is beginning to rise, practice ends, and the real satisfaction begins.

>>  Right now I’m exhausted.  It was a tough workout but I feel great.  I feel like I can start the day.

>>  We do more in the morning by seven o’clock than most people do all day and that’s a very satisfying feeling.

>>  This is something you can do forever.  I feel like I’m making a huge investment.

>>  Three days later the boats are back in the water for a scrimmage with a crosstown rival.  Their boats are also filled with middle-aged men and women.

>>  I would say the average age of our new rowers is probably about forty-five.  I regularly teach people in their mid-fifties to mid-sixties, beginning rowers.

>>  They race alone and they race in teams.  They race to lose weight, to rehab an injury, or simply to hold back the hands of time.

>>  We don’t pound our ankles, knees or hips.  It’s the only sport you can do sitting on your butt, but you get a total body workout from it.

>>  So who can do this?  Who can become a competitive rower?

>>  Everyone.  But truly everyone.

>>  There is even adaptive rowing available for people who do have some physical handicaps.

>>  This is a story of early days, tough workouts and inspiring teammates and like any good story, it has a moral for us all.

>>  The moral of the story is:  Number one, you’re never too old to get your exercise in, and that if you make your exercise a lifestyle, then you can continue to enjoy your life, have a fulfilled day, have a social circle of people who are as healthy as you are, and I think it just makes you a better person.

>>  That pretty much wraps it up.  Another great way to get moving, and another great example:  When you work out with others, when you hold one another accountable, it’s a lot easier to get into the habit of health.

>>  Becoming a healthier person, becoming a better person, was important to Heather Quillen.  She weighed nearly 300 pounds and she knew she had to make a drastic change in her life and she knew that if she wanted to help others, she had to help herself first.  You’ve got to move pretty quickly to keep up with Heather Quillen these days.

>>  I’m just power walking.

>>  She’s proved something to herself and now she’s on a mission to prove it to you.

>>  Exercise does work.

>>  It’s a simple fact, but one she had to learn the hard way.

>>  How much did you weigh here?

>>  I weighed two hundred and seventy-eight pounds.

>>  In fact, she was overweight for most of her life.  It’s not like she didn’t try, she went on every diet she could find.  It’s just didn’t work.  Frustrated, frightened and desperate, she knew something had to change.

>>  And I thought, this is it.  I’m done.  I am not — I am not going to feel like this anymore.

>>  She heard about Carnie Wilson and just like she did, decided to have gastric bypass surgery.

>>  It is a drastic move.  It is a very serious operation.

>>  Soon after, Heather made a very serious decision:  She realized if she didn’t change her lifestyle, all that weight could come right back.  She knew exactly what she had to do.

>>  I really seized the opportunity and I said, I am going to do this and I’m going to do it to the very best of my ability and in doing so, I worked out, started walking.

>>  Walking, not running?

>>  No.

>>  Not running marathons?

>>  No.  I walked and walked and still today I walk.  And you know what, it’s only like twenty minutes.  It’s not like an hour and a half or two hours.  It’s twenty minutes in the morning and twenty minutes at night.

>>  And ten years later, Heather is stronger, healthier, and happier than ever.  That’s not the end of the story.  She still knows what it’s like to be heavy and to feel helpless.  She believes she can use that to reach out to children like never before to fight childhood obesity.

>>  This is not something that children are born with.  These are learned habits, and it is preventable.  It is curable but best of all worlds is it doesn’t happen to a child to begin with.  If I could do something that would spare my child unnecessary pain and lifelong consequences, I would do anything I could.

>>  Along with a physician, she developed a program called Yo-Medics, which she is now making available all across the country.

>>  It is not a diet.  Absolutely not, because diets don’t work.  Diets don’t work.  I know that.  The focus is what we can do, not what we can’t have and what we can’t do.  It’s about living life, making good healthy choices the majority of the time.

>>  She wants to make a difference for children just as she did for herself.

>>  It has become my life’s work and it is something, as I said†– with a double negative†– I can’t not do it.  I am compelled.  I simply must do this because I have my own two children whom I adore, and I care very much about your child, and the child next door, and the children at school.

>>  You’ve lived the pain.

>>  I have.

>>  You’ve seen both sides.

>>  I have absolutely lived both lives.  Both lives, I really have.

>>  Heather’s living a life she never believed possible and she’s determined to help others have the same chance.

>>  The difference of having purpose in your life is profound.  It really is, to have purpose and to live passionately.  That’s the key.

>>  She has made a complete turnaround in her life and she’s a great example to us all.  She took charge of things with passion and she discovered a new purpose, which is battling childhood obesity.

(    Music playing)

>>  More to come, in fact, coming up next:  He was a child prodigy on the piano destined for international fame, that is, until he lost the use of one of his hands, but even that didn’t stop him.  This is Growing Bolder.

(Music playing)

>>  I’m Marc Middleton along with Bill Schafer, your friends from Growing Bolder.  Leon Fleisher is really a guy who defines growing bolder.  He’s now in his 80s, doing exactly what he wants to do, but what a journey he has had to get here.

>>  This one of the most amazing stories anywhere probably.  As a pianist he played Carnegie Hall when he was sixteen years old.  He never realized it would take him fifty years to get back to Carnegie.  Then again, he never could have predicted what physical challenges he would have to overcome on the way.

>>  This is a sight not often seen, a packed house for a small college student orchestra practice.

>>  Leon Fleisher is conducting a workshop at Rollins College and the public is invited.  It’s a rare opportunity to watch the Maestro at work.

>>  It’s kind of like being in a huddle with Vince Lombardi.

>>  The little notes, the eighth notes, there’s too much bow.  It’s bow for those long, long, then just stay ba dee bap, ba deep bap.

>>  Fleisher never planned on being a teacher, never aspired to become a conductor.  He was a child prodigy, a keyboard wizard who made his solo debut with the New York Philharmonic at age six, and played Carnegie Hall at sixteen.  By the time he was twenty-four, Fleisher was one of the most sought after soloists in the world.  But then he was attacked by a rare neurological disease and suddenly lost the use of his right hand.

>>  My right hand fifth and fourth fingers just dug into my palm and there was nothing I could do about it.  The worst part of it was that nobody knew what it was.  None of the medical profession knew what it was, so I started on a kind of odyssey of some thirty to thirty-five years of trying to find out what this was.

>>  At first he admits to playing the role of depressed, despondent artist.

>>  All of the self-doubt that you can imagine, of course, enters into it.  Is it just in my head, am I my crazy, am I sick?  That’s all part of it, and for a couple of years I was in that familiar maritime place known as dire straits.

>>  But over the course of several months, despair was replaced with determination, self-pity with self-awareness.

>>  I woke up one morning and realized that my connection to music†– which is what I exist for†– was more than just as a two-handed piano player.  My connection really was to music, and there were any number of ways that I could continue that connection and intensify that connection and I made up my mind to do it.

>>  So Fleisher became a one-handed concert pianist.

>>  Thank God there’s a certain literature for left hand alone, believe it or not.  There’s some twenty-five, thirty concertos written for left hand alone with orchestra, so I made a career as half a piano player.  I made a career out of five fingers.

>>  He also became an accomplished conductor and a world-class teacher, all the while waiting for the medical profession to catch up.  He waited over thirty years and then, a surprising development.

>>  Of all things, Botox can help relieve the symptoms.  They still don’t know what causes it and they don’t have a cure but they found that with Botox they can paralyze those muscles that are over-working, that are contracted, that are curling in, which relaxes them a little bit and allows the opposing muscles, the extensors, to function better and it helps keep my fingers out, and I can play.

>>  At the age of sixty-seven he returned triumphantly to Carnegie Hall, playing his first two-handed concert in nearly four decades.

>>  Carnegie Hall is always crazy because it has the ghost of the greats of the past.  Scary and fun.

>>  Now eighty-one, Fleisher is still performing, still conducting, and still teaching.

>>  It has given me so much joy and so much pleasure that if I were to have my druthers again, if the whole thing were to be rerun, I’m not so sure I would change a thing.

>>  Leon Fleisher can share complex music theory with the greatest minds alive, but what he really enjoys is sharing simple observations of life with young people.

>>  They get caught up in this maelstrom of activity that’s just by being activity is thought to be important.  Most of it’s totally unimportant.  Our way of life is geared to not giving us time to think about things.  You get into an elevator and man, you’re bombarded with music.  You’re never allowed to be quiet and silent and to think and to feel.  That’s all very important stuff.  Even such simple things as flowers, you know, they can fill your soul with the joy of beauty.

>>  Leon says life is both good and bad, always challenging.  The key is perspective.

>>  If the glass is half-full, you suddenly leave yourself open to many more possibilities.  If it’s half empty you are in a state of depression, you exclude possibilities, you contract your whole being into a kind of a shell and there’s no way that you can grow.  The world is full of possibilities, so when it’s at its worst you’ve got to do the tough thing and open up to these possibilities.

>>  The Maestro continues writing, playing, performing, conducting, and teaching.

>>  Coming up, is there such a thing as a magic word?  Meet a man who actually has two of them, and together they’ve made his life an amazing adventure with no regrets.  You’ll find out what they are next, on Growing Bolder.

>>  (Music playing)

>>  I’m Marc Middleton along with big bad Billy Shafer.  This is Growing Bolder, and some of us, Bill, have trouble deciding what we want to do and others among us are afraid to try once we figure it out, but finding things to do and then trying them out was never a problem for Lawrence Holofcenter.

>>  He’s amazing.  He’s been a well-known and successful songwriter, actor and playwright and now in his 80s he’s a respected sculptor and a painter.  He’s truly amazing.  Lawrence has used to simple words, Marc, to guide him through his amazing life, two words he thinks we all should live by, “Why not?”

>>  Some people have the toughest time deciding what they want to be when they grow up.  Lawrence Holofcenter’s eighty-five and even he can’t figure it out yet.  It’s not like he hasn’t tried, but that every normal job he was a†–

>>  Failure.  Total failure at everything except having fun.

>>  So began a lifelong quest for fun.

>>  I was in a fog all through school and I wondered what I was going to do.

>>  So he quit college.  He and a friend drove to New York and got a huge break writing songs, something he’d never done before, for Sid Caesar in Your Show Of Shows.

>>  You were writing comedy songs for Sid Caesar.

>>  Not only comedy.  Ballads, all kinds of things.  Little stuff, big production numbers and so forth, a background for Broadway and when we finally got the Broadway show Mr.†Wonderful in 1956, it all fit in and it was fine.

>>  Holofcenter and Bock wrote this, Too Close For Comfort, sung by the great Sammy Davis Junior.  Suddenly Lawrence was a Broadway songwriter about to become a major success, but just as suddenly, it wasn’t fun anymore.

>>  I couldn’t take celebrity and it was offered me.  My agents said at Weimar said, when I said I wanted to be an actor, “Why?  You’re a successful songwriter.  Just stick to that.”  “Well, I’m also thinking of writing plays.”  “Stick to lyrics.  Lyrics is a marvelous — think of all the people from — and you’re an “H.”  Horbach, Hammerstein, Hart, Harbrook and Holofcenter.”  “No, I think I wants to do something else.

>>  So he became an actor.  Why not?  You know how nobody makes their debut on Broadway?  He did in Stop The World, I Want To Get Off.  He starred with Carol Channing in Hello Dolly, later with Ginger Rogers.  And what became of Bock?  He became a superstar, writing the music for Fiddler On The Roof, a show that Lawrence later starred in.

>>  Acting was okay, but he wanted to try other things.  His philosophy, once again†–

>>  Why not?  And that’s the way it’s been.

>>  So he became a playwright.  He booked guests on the Merv Griffin show and he delighted in being the one who discovered the comedy team of Jeremy Stiller and Ann Mira.

>>  He liked us enough to get us booked on the Merv Griffin daytime show.

>>  Once again, Holofcenter was a success against all reason.

>>  You had no experience writing songs, and you became a songwriter.  You had no experience acting, and you became a Broadway actor.  You had never written a play, and you became a Broadway playwright.  I have no idea how you got into sculpting.

>>  That’s a funny story, but never mind.

>>  Actually it defines his spirit best of all.  One day he decided to give sculpting a try.  Why not?  So he went to an art museum.

>>  And I said to the lady at the desk, “Do you have any clay that I could buy, and some sculpting tools?”  And she grabs my hand, she said, “You’re a sculptor.  Our sculptor has gone to North Carolina and we start classes on Tuesday.  Could you teach our sculpting classes?”  Why not?  Sure.  I mean — and that’s how it started.

>>  You’re a fraud.

>>  Totally.  And when I taught my classes, what did I teach?  Nothing.  I had fifteen people sitting around with blobs of clay and I said, now we’re all going to do busts — that’s all I knew how to do — and we did the busts and I had the blobs of clay and I would walk around and I would say, that’s wonderful, this is marvelous, that’s great, this is a wonderful thing you’re doing.  And they look at me with this — “What?  It’s just a blob.”  And that’s how I taught.  I never said anything even remotely negative, even remotely critical.  Everything was wonderful and beautiful.

>>  And that was followed by yet another chance to say, why not?

>>  Director of the museum came to me and said, “When are we going to have a show of yours, Larry?”  What?  And I said — “You know, a body of work.”  What’s a body?  “Thirty-five, forty pieces of work, you know, in the main museum of the gallery.”  Yes, why not?  And that’s how I became a sculptor.

>>  What else?  Not just a sculptor, but a successful one.  Critics loved his piece called Out Of The Box, saying you can almost feel the agony of pushing through the barriers.  And then he created an iconic piece on Lawrence Olivier.

>>  My hero, wonderful actor.  I was an actor, he is the actor.  I couldn’t do a portrait of him because he kept changing his face, his nose, his hats, his cheeks, everything.  His eyebrows, everything was changed in every role, so I did twenty-eight faces.

>>  Olivier loved it but it was in the mid-’90s when one of his works brought him international acclaim:  Franklin Roosevelt and Winston Churchill sitting on a park bench.  When stores in the busiest shopping district in London saw it, they had to have it.  Why not?

>>  So they bought it, put it on Bond Street.  It’s been there since ’95.  It is the most — I’m told — visited sculpture in England.

>>  So out of everything, what was the best time of your life?

>>  Now.  Oh, absolutely.  Right this minute, doing your show.  What excitement.

>>  You didn’t hesitate to say now.  You’re in an age where most people are thinking it’s over, it’s past, it’s time to wind down.

>>  There’s no such thing as retirement.  Retirement.  Absolutely not.  It’s an artificial thing we put on — I don’t know why†– there must be somebody who can tell you, but that’s a joke.  That’s a foolish whim.  I would tell people — and I advise people who’ve just lost their jobs, lost their husband or lost their wife or had a climactic change that destroyed them, saying†– what an opportunity this is.  You can turn around and do something else.  “What else?  I don’t know what else.”  I don’t know either.  But you know.  Somewhere inside you, you know.

>>  You’re still proof that even now, you’re still doing that.

>>  Yes.  I’m waiting to do something different, but not waiting.  I’m doing what I’m doing now and something will hit me, can you†– why not?

>>  His wish is that the next opportunity comes your way that you’ll think of Lawrence Holofcenter and say, why not?

>>  That’s what life is all about.  I’m lucky to be here.  Thanks, Bill.

>>  No, thank you, Larry, for teaching us those two little words and how saying “why not” can lead to an extraordinary life filled with adventure, Marc, that keeps getting better and better every year.

(Music playing)

>>  Coming up, we’ve got an amazing woman.  In fact, if you ask her what she believes in, her answer will be short and sweet, literally.  This is Growing Bolder.

>>  I’m Bill Schafer with Marc Middleton, and this is Growing Bolder.  Do you remember when motorcycle rallies were for the young and the wild?  Well, they’re still pretty wild, but when we heard the average age was over fifty, we had check it out so we headed to one of the biggest rallies in the world:  Daytona Beach.

>>  It’s an event that draws the wild out of the mild and the freak out of the meek.  It’s where grown-ups go to get their youth back.

>>  We are kids, disguised as Halloween.

>>  In fact, it’s getting harder all the time to find someone under fifty.

>>  I look around and I see more guys with white beards.  What is that all about?

>>  I guess we started years ago and we just never got out of the habit of it.  Some of them are chasing their youth I suppose, I don’t know.

>>  She was looking around last night at the campsite and the average age was probably fifty.  Maybe just older people can afford the damn bikes.  I don’t know, but you see more people fifty and sixty than you do twenty and twenty-five.

>>  That’s because the people here swear a bike is the boomer’s fountain of youth.

>>  It’s a sense of freedom you have when you ride.  If you don’t do it, you won’t understand.

>>  Do you feel awkward being older?

>>  Not at all.  I think I’m very fortunate at my age to still be able to do something like this.  I plan on riding for a while yet.  I just turned the big seven-oh.

>>  I still like motorcycles, I’ve had one since I was seventeen.  I’m sixty-six now.  I’ve always had a bike.

>>  Keeps you young?

>>  Yes.  One of the things that keeps me young anyway.

>>  I thought that this was for twenty-year-old troublemakers.

>>  I’m a forty-six-year-old troublemaker.

>>  You see, you can take all your supplements and spend hours in the gym, but the point that’s apparent from this event is if you really want to stay young don’t ride the rocker, have a seat on a cycle.

>>  It just makes me feel like a million bucks.  I love coming down here, I like seeing all the people, I like all the bikes.  It’s one of the most wonderful things in the world.

>>  Did you ever think when you were younger that at the age of sixty-eight you’d be sitting up here?

>>  Absolutely not.  Probably not.  Thought I’d probably be playing golf or something like that, I guess.

>>  So what do you think that says?

>>  It’s just that little wild streak you just have, I guess, that you can’t get it out of your blood, that wind in your hair.

>>  Age doesn’t bother you?

>>  Age doesn’t bother me.

>>  You’re going to be seventy in a year.

>>  That is correct.

>>  What does this do for you?

>>  Enjoying life.

>>  Really, at seventy you’re not too old?

>>  You want to get beaten up?

>>  Go on, buddy.  Have a great time.

>>  Any hobby can add passion and excitement to your life, this one happens to be a lot more colorful than most, but you do have to be careful not to get too carried away.

>>  That’s my love, is motorcycles.  I’ve been married five times and my old lady can tell you right quick, he thinks more of the motorcycle than he does me.

>>  Even at this age you’re still having a great time?

>>  Oh yeah.  I have a good time anywhere I go as long as there’s a motorcycle involved.

>>  Some think the loudest thing out here is the roar of the bikes, but that sound is drowned out by the deafening roar of an older generation still living life to the fullest.

>>  Did you ever think when you were in your 20s that at the age of fifty-four you’d still be out here turning men’s heads at Biketober?

>>  No.

>>  You like that?

>>  I love it.

>>  What do you think this says about age?  Look at you, I mean, twenty years ago†–

>>  It says I’m hot as hell and love to have fun.

>>  Do you understand that what you’re doing†– you’re smashing the stereotypes that people have of age?

>>  I won’t when I get off the bike, I’ll limp and I’ll be all cramped up, my knees will hurt and then they’ll say, look at that old fella.

>>  But you get on that bike and you’re as cool as anybody out here.

>>  No, I’m not very cool, but I love the bike.

>>  Get a motorcycle, get a life.  Get off of the couch.

>>  What a great day that was, Billy, and he makes a great point:  Get off the couch, and some would say get out of the kitchen, but not Jane Hearsh.  In fact, the kitchen is where she found her purpose in life.

>>  Jane Hearsh fell in love with making cookies the day she got an easy bake oven as a little girl.  She fell in love with helping others on mission trips all over the world, trips on which her family was transformed by the experience of serving those in need.

>>  You’re changed.  You’re different, you have a bigger worldview when you live in a culture like we live in when you have what we have and you know what’s going on in the world, you’re almost not allowed to live the same way.  You have to do something.

>>  Jane is doing something.  In her mid-40s her love of baking and her love for others have given birth to Jane’s Short And Sweet, a baking business with all profits donated to helping women in need in the US and abroad.

>>  This has just kind of grown out of where her heart already is, she already has a heart for people and loves to cook.

>>  I’m thankful that I get to do it, and we’re hoping to make an imprint in the lives of women locally, in our neighborhood and eventually overseas.

>>  There are several successful models for what Jane and John Hearsh are attempting including Newman’s Own, started 1982 by actor Paul Newman when his friends clamored for his homemade salad dressing.  The brand now offers dozens of products and donates all profits to charity, over three hundred million dollars so far.

>>  Jane believes that social enterprise, building a business you love, is a means to helping others appeals to the best part in all of us.

>>  I think it’s kind of a knee-jerk response out of a concern for the next guy, out of a concern for other human beings and I’d like to think that’s kind of a seed that’s put in each one of us.

>>  Jane’s Short And sweet product line includes several versions of her award-winning shortbread, including oatmeal, pecan, and espresso.  She also offers biscotti and granola.  All are available online and in a growing number of retail locations.

>>  The irony isn’t lost on us that we do something kind of sweet in hopes of turning around some bitter circumstances, locally and eventually internationally, we hope.

>>  Jane knows she makes a great product and has an inspiring vision.  Now she hopes the marketplace will respond.

>>  The reality is, people love our cookies, people love our vision.  So what needs to happen in between is very simple.  People need to buy the cookies for us to extend the vision.  It’s really pretty simple.

>>  For Jane and John Hearsh this is not about making money.  It’s about donating money.  It’s about making a statement by making cookies and about taking a stand while taking a chance.

>>  If it never happens to be a big thing that’s fine too, because it never really started with the intent of, hey, let’s make money.  It really has just grown out of Jane’s passion for cooking and for people.

>>  It’s a little bit of an example to my kids to where if you love something enough to just try it.  The worst that can happen is you fall on your face and people say no to you, so you get back up and you try something else.

>>  In a very real way, this has become the ultimate mission trip for Jane Hearsh, one trip that could provide help and hope to all of the people in all the places she’s visited and served.  One trip that allows her to put her imprint on suffering people all over the world.  It’s a mission with a mission statement, one that’s short and sweet.

>>  A quality product, thoughtfully created, faithfully empowering.

>>  That’s one of the greatest things about a current trend, more and more men and women, especially over forty, are starting social enterprises, a business as a means of helping others.

>>  Doesn’t it help, Mark, to have a business statement that isn’t just about business but life as well.  Have you stopped to think about what really matters to you in your life?  You ought to, and then you should figure out a way to make that an important part of every single day of your life.

>>  Amen, brother Bill.  It’s been another interesting show and and an unusual show for us, the first time we’ve done an entire show consisting of pieces that were produced in the field instead of studio interviews.  Of course folks, the message is absolutely the same and you can feel the passion that these people have for life in all of these stories.

>>  I like it too, and one of the biggest points of all is these are all ordinary people, people who have experienced failure and heartbreak, challenges of every kind and yet they’re living active, exciting, passionate lives, and so can you.  All it takes that we hear from these people time and time again is, get off the couch and get into life.

>>  And it’s very important to surround yourself with others who do the very same thing and of course, a great way to do that is to watch and listen to Growing Bolder online, on TV and of course right here on the radio.

>>  We hope you’ll join us again right here next week and tell your friends about the big GB as well and be sure to like us on Facebook because there are discussions going on there all the time, Marc and I are in there as well, follow us on Twitter too and that way you’ll have a constant source of inspiration in your life, education, and entertainment.  Now how can you beat that?  Marc, anything else?

>>  See you.

Textual Hearing



with Alex Laferriere, Steve DiTullio, and Brandon Vogel

May 5, 2012

Link to podcast

Transcript provided by:
Speech Text Access LLC

>> ALEX:  Open Lounge is a proud member of

the Podsmiths network.

>> STEVE:  Subscribe to this show and more

at Podsmiths.com.

>> BRANDON:  On today’s episode of Open


>> ALEX:  I don’t know where filmmaking is

going as far as the epics are concerned.

>> BRANDON:  And then:

>> STEVE:  For me personally this guy was

like a hero of mine as a kid.

(Music playing)
>> BRANDON:  Welcome to Open Lounge.

>> STEVE:  Where the glasses are chilled,

the drinks are poured, and the seats are warm.

>> ALEX:  I’m Alex.

>> STEVE:  I’m Steve.

>> BRANDON:  And Brandon is here too.

>> ALEX:  We’re recording at the G Two

Seven Lounge where we come every week to

discuss topics ranging from film to philosophy.

>> BRANDON:  Won’t you join us?

>> ALEX:  Steve, this going to be an

interesting episode because this is actually

going to go somewhere further than our website.

We are going to get this transcribed.  Yes,

I’ve been looking into a transcription service.

>> STEVE:  You’ve been looking into

that — this has been a pet project of yours

for little while.

>> ALEX:  Yeah, and this has recently come

around, thanks to Karen online that I’ve been

talking to, she does her own Twitter work and

it’s great seeing her out there and she

recommended a transcription service to

basically listen to our podcast and put it into

a text format so it’s like this weird —

>> STEVE:  Why is she doing this?

>> ALEX:  Because, well, I’m talking to

this one guy Bill who says it’s like — it

would be great to have podcasts transcribed so

the deaf audience — the thirty six million

people out there — could actually partake as

an audience, so I was like, that’s kind of

brilliant, not to mention it could be made into

a book as well, to have it into a text format,

to have it as a blog.

>> STEVE:  Sure, it’s just that that’s

just a lot of work.

>> ALEX:  I think it’s automated, it’s

like Dragon speech.

>> STEVE:  Oh boy, that’s going to be

funny in and of itself.

>> ALEX:  Why?

>> STEVE:  Because I don’t think those

things work that well.

>> ALEX:  You don’t think the machine will

do it right?

>> STEVE:  Probably not.

>> ALEX:  Why wouldn’t it?

>> STEVE:  Because there have been times

when I’ve screamed so loud that words have not

come out properly, so just on the off chance

that that happens again sometime within the

next ten minutes —

>> ALEX:  You’re a yeller.

>> STEVE:  I am a yeller, and I sometimes

yell incoherently, so I guess I’ll have to

watch my speech this time around.

>> ALEX:  We all have to, all those past

episodes, oh, no one — my dad’s not going to

hear this, now it’s like —

>> STEVE:  Now he will.

>> ALEX:  If all the episodes get chosen.

>> STEVE:  That would be a hell of a lot

of work.

>> ALEX:  To go back and do a whole —

>> STEVE:  Oh god, yeah.

>> ALEX:  It would be kind of cool.

>> STEVE:  It would be phenomenal.  It

would be awesome.

>> ALEX:  The journals of Steve and Alex.

>> STEVE:  It would be great, it just

would be a lot of eff’in work.

>> ALEX:  I understand, it’s just sort of

weird because like we’ve been covering a lot of

stuff in our own lives, we’ve kind of gotten

away for a little bit and I wanted to use this

as a platform to kind of talk to an audience

that we’ve been building with Dine & Sign, and

basically —

>> STEVE:  I’m totally game for it,

just — it’s Karen, right?

>> ALEX:  Right.

>> STEVE:  Karen, be prepared when I break

the system, that’s all.  Have a contingency


>> ALEX:  Bill is the guy I’m talking to.

>> STEVE:  Have a contingency plan.

>> ALEX:  This is coming at you.

>> STEVE:  Adjust your microphone volume


>> ALEX:  Dine & Sign been taking this

audience, building an audience, and kind of

people who are enjoying watching me and my dad

and talking on the web and doing a show which

is kind of weird, and now I would love to tap

into that audience base and ask them what was

on their minds as far as like over the next

couple of months.

I have this plan in my mind that something

was going to happen, a competition of sorts in

which I’m going to ask my father, you know,

it’s the summertime, blockbusters, you know,

people go see movies in the summer, kind of a

thing if I do say so.  Avengers hit yesterday

if you want to get some topical information.

>> STEVE:  Yes, I haven’t seen it though.

It’s a yes or no.  Have you seen it?

>> ALEX:  No.

>> STEVE:  Move on.  Neither of us have

seen it.  We can’t talk about it.

>> ALEX:  But I feel like I can’t get away

from it.  There’s advertisements everywhere on

Spotify, and I was at the Apple store the other

day and there was the most epic ad on Spotify.

>> STEVE:  This has the potential to be a

modern-day Jaws in the sense that this will

change the way movies are made for years to

come, this is the first time this massive

continuities have been built up, and word on

the street is Marvel continues — has a plan to

continue to do this, so there is a very real

possibility that this will be the future of

moviegoing, where this will be how they get

people to come in where if you’ve got a cop, a

cop drama, a buddy cop movie you’re going to

make, there are the cops that are running

around trying to save people in the Avengers

movie and now you’re branching out further, and

the possibilities for this are big.  There’s a

lot of money riding on this one so you’re going

to see it everywhere.

>> ALEX:  And I think that’s fascinating

because as far as filmmaking and cinematography

is concerned, I don’t know if the lines can be

pushed any more, like I’ve looked at the

trailers and I’ve looked at the film that’s

coming out and it’s like, this is visually

stimulating overload.  I was just watching E.T.

before I came into the lounge and I noticed

something.  It’s so soft and slow as far as

filmmaking is concerned.

>> STEVE:  Different era.

>> ALEX:  And that’s when I realized, holy

shit, we are in this ADD world of boom, boom,

boom, boom, boom.

>> STEVE:  Shit’s happening all over the


>> ALEX:  Our summer blockbusters just

have to be summer blockbusters, like these huge

epics from Transformers, to now the Avengers

that’s coming out, and like there were comic

book movies last year.  I remember we were

talking about, I think the only movie I was

going to see last year was Captain America.

Have not seen it.

>> STEVE:  I still haven’t seen it either.

I want to see Cap and Thor before I go see the

Avengers movie.

>> ALEX:  That’s the whole thing with

these movies is you chain them up, you know,

combo, which makes sense, it’s just I’ve been

— I don’t know where filmmaking is going as

far as the epics are concerned and you talk

about how it’s going to change the industry, I

think it’s just like it’s hyper accentuating

the industry to the point where projects have

to get bigger and bigger.

>> STEVE:  I don’t think projects

necessarily have to get bigger and bigger,

you’re going to probably be working — you’re

talking about studios that are working on

multiple projects at a time anyway so now you

just merge the projects together in some way,

shape, or form.  Picture the — you know, some

of the detectives who are working in the

department, the same department as the guys who

are investigating the Saw murders are the buddy

cop guys.

It’s not hard, but you give them a plug,

you give them a small role in a different movie

and then they’re going to branch off.  TV’s

been doing this forever.  It will be the first

time that movies to my knowledge, the first

time that movies will have tried to do that.

>> ALEX:  I know, if we threw a little bit

of research on it — we should probably give a

shout out over to Jeff Burns over at the

Everything Film Show, maybe they can actually

get something specific.

>> STEVE:  Well, I have done a little

research on this.

>> ALEX:  On the continuity of movies?

>> STEVE:  Yes.  To the best of my

knowledge, this is the first time it’s happened

like this at least.

>> ALEX:  Drop some science.

>> STEVE:  No, that was it.

>> ALEX:  This instance in time is the

first time?

>> STEVE:  Yes.

>> ALEX:  I don’t know if somewhere in the

80’s there were some movies that came out

that were like intertwined or related in some


>> STEVE:  Nothing on this type of a


>> ALEX:  Where they’re drawing from is

pop-culture threads that have been sown over

time, and I think that’s half the benefit is

just we’re entering an age in which people can

really become fan boys of a history or of a

heritage, whether it’s comic books, which have

a deeply rooted history and now the new leaf

fan boy interest, gaming — and gaming is

huge — and I was thinking about a lot of

things that I’ve kind of left behind as far as

my interest in Dungeons & Dragons and gaming

and video games in general and table top and

moving into this idea of what sort of niche

audience would we be interested in making a

story for, if I were to make the gamers —

going into our own personal project

development, there are a couple stories I would

want to produce and right now and one them

happens to be Dine & Sign, which, is this a

deaf audience we’re going towards?

I don’t know, because now we have this

podcast which we’re getting transcribed.  I

think it’s kind of cool, we’re constantly

feeding this audience with different forms of

entertainment that don’t normally go their way.

And I was talking with someone earlier at the

meeting at Newton that I had where the most

visually entertaining platform, YouTube, does

not really cater to the deaf world the way Dine

& Sign does.

>> STEVE:  Nothing does, though.

>> ALEX:  Which is unfortunate.  It’s

something I’ve never really thought about, and

how it’s like that’s a very target niche

audience that now can be communicated to.

>> STEVE:  Yeah.

>> ALEX:  Do you watch any Switched At

Birth?  Have you heard about Switched At Birth?

>> STEVE:  No.

>> ALEX:  It’s a big ABC Family show that

I see get talked about in the deaf community

like through Facebook and Twitter because it’s

about a deaf child being raised, but you know,

these two kids were switched at birth and the

deaf kid is in this other family that

theoretically shouldn’t have a deaf kid, and I

was just thinking about how yeah, there’s not

really a big deaf thread in pop culture.  It’s

always just like an add-on or maybe a


>> STEVE:  Yeah, it really isn’t.  This is

going to get a little on the controversial side

but oh well, I’ve never been afraid of a fight.

>> ALEX:  Exactly, because now —

>> STEVE:  You don’t broadcast handicaps.

In the mainstream eye, deaf is a handicap.  I

understand that there’s a culture around it, I

understand that this isn’t like a clinical

thing, but ultimately you are viewed as having

a handicap in society by not having functioning


>> ALEX:  Right.  The meeting at Newton I

had mentioned that Glee is like the first TV

show in which there is a televised person in a

wheelchair and we kind of went really, we

thought about it and he said, okay, maybe

Sesame Street did it in like 1973.  Check in

the box, move on.  So I was like, okay, yeah,

there’s never really been like a wheelchair


>> STEVE:  To be fair, in those backyard

sports games, there’s always the kid in a

wheelchair and I always picked him because he

was awesome.

>> ALEX:  In video games?

>> STEVE:  Oh, absolutely.  The backyard

baseball, backyard football, backyard


>> ALEX:  There’s always some kid in a

wheelchair?  Wicked high speed score?

>> STEVE:  It’s the same cast of kids for

all these different games.  Did you never play

these as a kid?

>> ALEX:  No.  I hate sports games.

>> STEVE:  Holy shit.  They’re not really

sports games, though.  They’re really not.

>> ALEX:  It’s like Megaman soccer.

>> STEVE:  This is like — you picked a

couple of football players who as kids — I

think the football one was like Drew Bledsoe,

Jerry Rice, big names —

>> ALEX:  You had these giant heads on

these little bodies.

>> STEVE:  Yeah, little tiny guys and then

you had kids who were playing with them and I

would always pick the same basically like ten

guys for each of the teams and the kid in the

wheelchair was always one of them because I

always liked it.

>> ALEX:  I don’t discriminate.

>> STEVE:  That was immediately where my

mind was, you know, well, you know what?  No.

For television probably, but yes, going back to

the main point, yes, handicaps are usually not

broadcast into the mainstream.  We could really

go so far as to say it’s only been recently

that race has kind of become —

>> ALEX:  A tool to be utilized in


>> STEVE:  Honestly, it’s to the point now

where you have to have a certain race mix for a

certain image to make sure that you’re not

being too stereotypical.

>> ALEX:  Which is ironic because I did

some research on the Aunt Jemima logo back in

college, and the notion that some of their

advertisement campaigns were people in

blackface going around and like role-playing

Aunt Jemima and that was totally acceptable,

and that was totally like as if a caricature at

a sports arena was walking around waving at

everyone and people were like, that’s

fucking — what is that, the Red Sox one?

That’s awful of me that I don’t know.  Wally?

>> STEVE:  Wally.

>> ALEX:  Which is a weird mascot for the

Red Sox, have no idea why that —

>> STEVE:  Because the green monster, the

great green wall —

>> ALEX:  So the big green monster is this

fat, frumpy, Wally the fucking crazy, Doctor

Seussian creature?

>> STEVE:  No, Wally is — it’s a green

monster and the park is known for having a

green monster wall.

>> ALEX:  No, I agree with the green

monster.  It just doesn’t look like a monster.

>> STEVE:  He looks a Sesame Street


>> ALEX:  Yeah, that’s not really like a

monster like the Worcester — the Ice Cats.  He

looked like a mean Ice Cat.  I liked him

from —

>> STEVE:  Worcester Ice Cats, what are

you talking about?

>> ALEX:  The hockey team.

>> STEVE:  Dude, the Sharks.

>> ALEX:  They used to be the Ice Cats.

I’m saying before, when I saw a mascot, I’d

like to see an aggressive mascot.

>> STEVE:  Talking sports with you is like

pulling teeth, it really is.

>> ALEX:  I know, I’m talking about the

lamest thing about sports in general.

>> STEVE:  You just don’t — this is like

me trying to — when we were talking to — who

is the dude from Green Ronin publishing, the

gentleman’s name at JanCom? he was talking

about the differences between a D6 and a D10

and how they revolutionized the game and I was

just kind of sitting there like, oh my God, I

am out of my element.

>> ALEX:  It’s funny because we have so

many niche categories in our world.

>> STEVE:  By the way, not that he was in

any way, shape — oh god, I want to say it was

Chris something.

>> ALEX:  Chris Purdy is — in my mind,

but — I saw him on Twitter at some point —

Perkins — Green Ronin Publishing.

>> STEVE:  We gave him the proper plug.

>> ALEX:  The business plug.

>> STEVE:  Not that any of that was like

at all not interesting, we were just —

>> ALEX:  This is when you talk poker.

>> STEVE:  I’m absorbing so much now I

have nothing to add to this conversation.  I

don’t know what he’s talking about.

>> ALEX:  The thing about all the

different worlds, once again going back the

Newton meeting that’s been on my mind all day,

talking about niches and what kind of show or

storytelling can you develop — and you are

talking about doing stuff for the poker world,

you’ve always said there’s not a lot of content

for the poker world.

>> STEVE:  There is not, and the stuff

that’s there is pretty bare-bones.

>> ALEX:  And it’s like tapping into the

well of making a story for a specific

community, like what would the deaf community

want to see from someone like me?  I know

there’s a proper way to approach this, but to

go back, you know, working stiffs is a project

that I want to tell in a web series format,

what does that look like?

>> STEVE:  I’m okay doing something where

we have a character who is deaf and that

becomes like a part of the plot.  That’s not —

like let’s pull the curtain back, that’s not a

bad idea.  When you brought that up I said

okay, he’s thinking.  I like that.  That’s not


>> ALEX:  I don’t want to say it’s

exploitive but I want to relate to a group of


>> STEVE:  It’s not exploitative to do

things like that.  It’s just not.  You’re an

entertainer, you have to show people what they

want, otherwise they’re not going to watch.

Now, you’re not necessarily kowtowing to this

group of people, but at the same time you’ve

got to give them a reason to keep watching,

otherwise they’re not going to and that’s kind

of the nature of the beast.

You can go too far in the other direction,

just be like everybody’s deaf, ooh ah ah ah, ah

ah, and it’s wrong, that would be exploitative,

but you can’t talk any more so it was kind of

like —

>> ALEX:  Another form of communication.

>> STEVE:  I apologize to every deaf

person in the world who just read that.  The

bottom line is see, Dragon speech, how is

Dragon speech going to be like ooh, ah ah ah?

>> ALEX:  They’ll figure it out.  This is

an experiment, because I don’t know of any

other deaf podcast out there.  I haven’t done

the research for it.  Talk about a man of

duality, I do live in two worlds.

>> STEVE:  You talk about living in

duality, I just gave you shit about it because

I think there’s more than a duality.

>> ALEX:  This is maybe a point of

discussion for people, but going back on that

point of me living in two worlds, the hearing

world and the deaf world, thinking about how to

bridge those two is like always on my mind of

how to tell a good story that would placate one

audience without alienating another, and I

understand, you know it’s like once you become

known for something either online or in life —

earlier today we were talking about Rachel Ray,

how she is like the thirty-minute chef, that’s

all she’s known for in the world of — the

entertainment world.

>> STEVE:  Not even close.

>> ALEX:  Thirty-minute chef?

>> STEVE:  She’s had a talk show going for

about ten years now.

>> ALEX:  She’ll only be — every one of

her shows has something to do with cooking,


>> STEVE:  No, she has a talk show.  She

is a fucking Oprah clone.

>> ALEX:  What?

>> STEVE:  She’s never been a cook.

That’s the whole point.  She’s just one of the

first people who is on the food network

channel.  She’s not a chef.  She’s not trained

as a chef, she doesn’t know how to cook — not

know how to cook, you know what I mean, like

culinary school wise.  She does not know those

things, she was never taught those things in a

school setting.  She had the thirty-minute

meals show, she had the forty dollars a day

show where she would go to these different

restaurants and spend forty bucks a day on a

trip —

>> ALEX:  Thirty minutes a meal, forty

dollars a day.

>> STEVE:  No, thirty-minute meals, yeah,

that was the cooking show.  She’s evolved to

the point where she has her own talk show.

>> ALEX:  Fifty bucks a night.

>> STEVE:  No.

>> ALEX:  That’s the name of the talk


>> STEVE:  No, she has a talk show.  I

think it’s just “Rachel” or something like


>> ALEX:  Just “Rachel.”  No, but really,

with the apostrophe?

>> STEVE:  No, she has an Oprah show now.

That’s what she is.  She’s that kind of person.

>> ALEX:  Oprah went up there by stepping

down and retiring.  “Oh yeah, you’re gonna be

better than me?  I retire.”

>> STEVE:  Yeah, maybe.

>> ALEX:  Just that one-uppance of —

>> STEVE:  Maybe, except for the fact that

now Oprah has her own network.

>> ALEX:  So now she becomes a figure,

she’s leaving a legacy of a spirit rather than

an actual image of her face.  It’s great.

She’s a powerful lady, and she’s a

rags-to-riches story, I think, right?  We buy

that up, don’t we?

>> STEVE:  She’s a poor woman in Chicago.

>> ALEX:  And all of a sudden, boom.  A

black woman at that.

>> STEVE:  She is fucking loaded.

>> ALEX:  Ted Turner type.  Talk about

numbers losing their meaning.

>> STEVE:  She is fucking loaded.  Like

unbelievable, the command that she has and the

following that she has, everything.

>> ALEX:  I try to wrap my head around

that, especially being a man of social media,

and how everything has a number to it that is

easily accessible to the public.  Like once I

started realizing that on YouTube having

100,000 views per week is a pretty big deal.

Having five million views like Ray William

Johnson of Equals Three, that unbelievable

power to think of some dude with a laptop,

uploading Dine & Sign from Harvard University

for three weeks now. And that means something.

Now I understand a lot of those views could be

thirteen-year-old kids, but —

>> STEVE:  Who cares at that point?

>> ALEX:  It’s still advertisement, right?

Who cares?

>> STEVE:  I do have — not to sidetrack

this — you sent me a text earlier in the week,

quote, remind me about playing a deaf guy

pouring oil with dramatic music and my dad

nodding epically.

>> ALEX:  So essentially with this summer

shorts blockbuster, I thought of this one short

that I, at the very least want to try to do in

some shape or form.  There’s a couple things I

want to accomplish this summer.

>> STEVE:  I’d really be okay with filming

shit, because that’s what I signed up for.

>> ALEX:  What I described there is the

story.  That is the script.  We are going to

get together on a day and just have a little

sketch, there are two lines of dialogue —

>> STEVE:  Is this a Helen Keller scene,

is this what it was?  [yelling] Again, deaf

people, I apologize.

>> ALEX:  It was just like, there was a

bottle of olive oil that was empty, it was a

nice, long-necked one I like to use and we had

a rinky-dink shahs bottle with olive oil and I

wanted to transfer the two.

>> STEVE:  You wanted to make it look like

you had classy olive oil?

>> ALEX:  Exactly, the aesthetics of the

oil.  And I was just like, okay, time to pour

this, and I was just like, and I was like,

okay, got to focus on this now, and I just

imagined — imagine there was this scene of

this, like, crowd and for some reason it was

like competition pouring and there’s this team

that always wins and it’s just like, the secret

weapon, it’s this guy who is deaf just because

he is like, he is just focusing in on the

pouring of the oil and you can’t hear the crowd

like cheering him on so he just has this zen

moment of, I will not spill, because obviously

in competition pouring, you can’t.  It’s this

cute little three-minute — you show an image,

like a competition point, so you rapid-fire

storytelling, and then it’s just this

ridiculous, like these two people are like, how

is he doing this?

And it’s because he’s deaf.  I wanted to

get like really epic shots, take photos of

things, and use our eyes.  And it’s a simple

setup as far as filmmaking is concerned, like

maybe we just need a room and that’s why I was

looking at E.T., of like there’s not a lot of

stuff going on here.  A lot of these interior

shots can be done in a studio, and you set up

lights and you build it.

>> STEVE:  That might be a bad example for

“There’s not a whole lot going on there,” but I

know what you mean.  I know what the point is.

This is not as Herculean as —

>> ALEX:  I make it out to be.

>> STEVE:  That is something that is

achievable, especially with modern convenience.

>> ALEX:  Right.  Now kind of tying

everything together with that one scene, would

that be a funny like sketch?  Would people be

interested in hearing about or seeing about

that?  What is the point of doing that sketch?

Well, I don’t know, as a filmmaker I think it

would be cool to do dramatically, but now going

back again to the Avengers, of how things are

being ramped up, because things are becoming

Herculean from that standpoint of — technology

is allowing things to move a lot quicker and

faster so half of the ’80s appeal movies was

a fact that they could move the camera around a

little bit better.

>> STEVE:  People didn’t understand the

language of film back then though.  There was a

completely different language of, you have to

do these things, otherwise your audience is

just going to be lost.  Now your audience —

>> ALEX:  Way back in the ’20s and


>> STEVE:  I think the ’80s is pretty


>> ALEX:  It starts to — it develops.

>> STEVE:  There’s some camera movement,

but it’s now developed to a point where your

audience is smart enough that you can pull out

some zany tricks and the suspension of this

belief won’t go like [sound effect] on you.

>> ALEX:  Sometimes today I go cross-eyed

watching modern-day movies.  Just action going

on, it’s like [yelling] —

>> STEVE:  I’ve never had that problem,

although I will say I’m liking movies like the

Transformers less and less.

>> ALEX:  As you grow older?

>> STEVE:  More recently, but I will say

as I grow older.

>> ALEX:  Would you consider E.T. a kids’


>> STEVE:  Yes.

>> ALEX:  Is it a scary kids’ movie?

>> STEVE:  Yes.

>> ALEX:  Yeah, because I recall E.T. from

the past as being this scary movie.

>> STEVE:  For a little kid — not

necessarily scary, but as a little kid you’re

not equipped to handle emotion and there was a

lot of emotions E.T. is evoking from you, so

your natural reaction as a child is to be

frightened when you don’t really know what else

to do.  As a human being, that’s kind of — you

don’t know what else to do, you kind of get

freaked out.

>> ALEX:  You just kind of panic and

there’s yelling and screaming and then there’s

like this alien creature and they’re linked and

they’re riding through the forest, like I just

remember as a kid recalling certain pieces and

it just being a scary movie and only seeing

certain scenes like on TV, like, you know,

flicking through the channels and maybe

watching fifteen minutes and being like, I have

no context of what is going on, this is fucking

frightening, moving on, so again tonight was —

I still haven’t seen it in its entirety from

start to finish because sometimes I find that

the storyline of E.T. is complex, there’s a lot

going on, going back to this forest, and I love

the scenes where, “It’s working,” it’s like, I

guess it’s working, kid, I’ll take your word

for it.  This machine that is going [sound

effects] and like moving a fork, a very rude

Goldberg machine, and it’s like, “I’ll take

your word for it.”

>> STEVE:  “I’m not sure know how you knew

that, but” —

>> ALEX:  But yeah.  “Thanks, buddy.”  So

that’s why I was saying that movies have

actually escalated because now we have the

comic book movies that are just —

>> STEVE:  That’s coming from a culture

where you had to have this absolutely

obscure — not obscure, outlandish artwork,

where comic books have always been an

incredibly visual medium, well duh, in other

news, rain makes you wet — so now when you put

that on a screen, that’s why comic book movies

haven’t really always done that well because

you’ve really only been able to do basic stuff

cinematically compared to what you can do

drawing on a piece of paper and what your

audience will, like, go for.

So now you can finally do those types of

things in cinema with movies like Thor, Captain

America, The Avengers, the Ironman movies —

supposedly there’s an I-Man 3 coming out soon

which will lead in to more, larger universe

movies which —

>> ALEX:  Because Iron Man chains up with

other things, right?  See, that’s the other

thing.  I don’t even — remember other

things — I enjoy comic books more reading the

Wikipedia articles than I do the actual comic

books themselves.

>> STEVE:  It’s kind of a similar thing.

>> ALEX:  That sucks, doesn’t it?

>> STEVE:  Not really.

>> ALEX:  I’m just a top level fucking

geek for this type of stuff.

>> STEVE:  There’s only so many hours in

the day, Alex.

>> ALEX:  I’ll let those people consume

the comic, and tell me what’s good.

>> STEVE:  Now I get the synopses and I’m

okay with that.  But I heard the Civil War plot

line was what they were going to try to bring


>> ALEX:  Okay.  I remember hearing about

that, and it was great, just enough for me to

hear about it.

>> STEVE:  Which I believe ends with —

Wolverine’s involved in the Civil War series —

>> ALEX:  Somebody dies.

>> STEVE:  Captain America dies, I believe

Iron Man kills Captain America.  I believe

that’s how it works.

>> ALEX:  Really?

>> STEVE:  Yes, I believe that’s how it

goes down.  I am fairly confident.  Spiderman I

know is involved.

>> ALEX:  He gets a mask.

>> STEVE:  He intentionally gets a mask

which, in the comic world they have all just

gotten rid of, like no, that never happened.

>> ALEX:  Because now there’s a split

parallel in the Spiderman world.

>> STEVE:  This is why you don’t read

comics though, this is why you kind of listen

to them.

>> ALEX:  You listen to someone else tell

you the story.

>> STEVE:  Where it’s like, cool, someone

else can give me the synopsis.  I didn’t have

to read ninety pages to get to that point.

>> ALEX:  I’ve discovered a lot of things

that I enjoy recently.  I acquired some digital

comics of the old Spiderman just to see what

they look like in PDF form, and I was like,

wow, to sit here and enjoy each image and each

frame as a drawing rather than just read the

bubbles and kind of [sound effects] glance, to

actually appreciate every little thing and take

the time to read a comic book rather than skim

it, people do that and I don’t.  That’s an

interesting thing to consume and I’m wondering

if — why people still do that, first of all,

that enjoyment to go to a comic store and buy

the physical comic?

>> STEVE:  It’s people who have always

been into it and just kind of perpetuated it,

like the movie Bob, who we’ve talked about on

this show — he is big into comics, and he

mentioned in a couple of them that comics get

really weird with continuities because the guys

who are writing the comics now were the ones

who were reading the comics before and they

like those bigger continuities and all those

characters, and now they want to include them

in their own works and now it just kind of

escalates from there.

>> ALEX:  Did you follow any author, any

comic authors or writers?

>> STEVE:  I don’t follow comics, period,

story over.  I know the big heroes, I know I

was huge into Batman as a kid but Batman to me

was Batman, the animated series.

>> ALEX:  The same with Spiderman.  I

really enjoyed the animated series a well.

>> STEVE:  I like the animated series as

well, Spiderman was another one.  My little

brother got really into Spiderman.  I got into

Batman.  I’m familiar with the Hulk, I’m

familiar with Superman, Wonder Woman, The

Justice League, the cartoon network show many

years later —

>> ALEX:  Never watched that.

>> STEVE:  I really liked that show a lot.

>> ALEX:  Really?

>> STEVE:  It was on at night too, it was

a little bit more like, not mature cartoon, but

it was on the early end of —

>> ALEX:  Kidsy type of thing?

>> STEVE:  It was the early end of the

night.  If you look back at Batman, the

animated series, I remember looking back at

that and being genuinely kind of frightened


>> ALEX:  It’s a dark cartoon.  It’s drawn

on black construction paper for that specific


>> STEVE:  It definitely sets a different

tone, a different mood and I remember watching

Mask Of The Phantom, I can’t remember — the

animated movie they did where —

>> ALEX:  I remember renting that from

Blockbuster.  My father and I, the VHS.

>> STEVE:  My father and I went to

theaters to see that.

>> ALEX:  Wow.  What did he think about


>> STEVE:  What did he think about it?  I

don’t know.  I was really little at the time.

I don’t remember, I was six or seven.

>> ALEX:  Did you prompt him to take you

or he was like, I’m going to take you to see


>> STEVE:  All I remember from that day

with my father and I went to the movies, my

mother had people over at the house and they

were asking me about the movie afterwards.

That’s all I remember, but I remember my father

was the one who took me.  I think my little

brother was a baby and couldn’t go anywhere

yet, so that’s why I went with my father.

>> ALEX:  I remember renting it from

Blockbuster and my dad was like, that’s Batman.

Brought it home, put it in, he was like, “It’s

a cartoon?”  I was like no, I wanted the actual

movie.  I was like, “No, Dad, that’s pretty

cool, it’s a feature-length cartoon, that’s

epic.”  He just didn’t get it and he’s like

“Oh, that sucks,” and he just didn’t watch it

and I was like okay, fine, I will enjoy it.

>> STEVE:  Okay, screw you.

>> ALEX:  It was just cool to see how

comics jumped into long form feature like films

like that, even from that age because I don’t

know what cartoons are doing.  I know

Nickelodeon acquired Fred.

>> STEVE:  CG and a lot of it.

>> ALEX:  Fred made a Nickelodeon movie,

did you know that?

>> STEVE:  Yes, I know that.  John Cena

was his father.

>> ALEX:  That’s the audience that watches

wrestling?  The Nickelodeon audience watches

wrestling?  The wrestling audience blows me


>> STEVE:  Wrestling today is very

different than wrestling was when I was a kid.

When I was a kid, wrestling was catered towards

a much more mature audience.  That was that

attitude era where they were like naked chicks

up on the screen dancing in silhouette in the

background and you were seeing like people

getting busted open and bleeding.  It was

intense, it was an intense experience.

>> ALEX:  Yeah, it was scary.

>> STEVE:  And there were like bikini

contests where people were wearing nothing more

than body paint — that’s a big oh my God

moment from wrestling — but now it’s geared

towards little kids largely because John Cena

became as popular as he did and started doing

this kid thing and now he’s wildly popular with

the younger demographic, so the whole program

kinda turned more — it was TV 14 when I was

watching it as a kid.  It’s TV PG now.

>> ALEX:  TV ratings and stuff, geez.

>> STEVE:  But to go back to it, yes.

Probably the Nickelodeon audience now is what

would watch wrestling today as well although

it’s still on in the late hours anyway so it’s

not like little kids are really going to be

able to see it.

>> ALEX:  I like to think about different

audiences because this is that episode of niche


>> STEVE:  That’s a big one, too.

Wrestling is big.

>> ALEX:  It blows my mind.  It blows my


>> STEVE:  You want to know what the most

popular sport in the country is by far?


>> STEVE:  NASCAR.  By far, it’s not

close.  Although I think in past years it’s

become a lot closer between football and


>> ALEX:  Amazing.  Not that that doesn’t

mean anything, it’s just — to see the dude

walking down the street who —

>> STEVE:  People who grew up in the

northeast, you’re just not exposed to this.

We’re just not in areas and learning the

geography of wrestling — because there was

one — we’re in no way shape or form anywhere

near where this stuff was really big.

>> ALEX:  And then boom, Internet.

>> STEVE:  Yeah, well, it was before the


>> ALEX:  It allows people access to this.

Now maybe —

>> STEVE:  Someone in Mexico, Japan —

those are huge wrestling markets.  I think the

mecca of wrestling is in North Carolina or

something like that, in the United States,

which is like, huh?  What?  To someone who grew

up in Massachusetts his whole life it’s like,

what the hell is in North Carolina?  There’s

nothing in North Carolina.

>> ALEX:  So we’ve touched on a lot of

different demographics, a cocktail of different

things, deafness and wrestling and comic books

and gaming and —

>> STEVE:  Speaking of cocktails.

>> ALEX:  Yes, this is the Open Lounge.

We’re going to grab a quick drink break here

for a second.

(Music playing)

>> ALEX:  I’m not a football fan.

>> STEVE:  No, you’re not.

>> ALEX:  But Junior Seau is no longer

among us.

>> STEVE:  Kind of screwed with my head.

>> ALEX:  And we are driving home and I

totally love the idea of radio because it hits

all the right points, you know, little

bite-sized segments that are constantly

repeated throughout the day, so — so if you

happen to catch it at 3 p.m. because you’re

going home from work or you’re outside on your

lunch break, and — you’re going to hear the

news sprinkled throughout the day.  So the

Junior Seau thing, I got to hear many different

forms of it from, you know, Junior Seau found

dead in his home, and I was like, why does that

sound so familiar?

>> STEVE:  Knowing you’re not a football


>> ALEX:  NFL story Junior Seau found

dead, and it’s kind of like oh my God, and I

Wiki’d it as I was driving.

>> STEVE:  This would be if — of the same

caliber as — he’s a bigger deal than Teddy

Brewski for sure.

>> ALEX:  Really?  I think Teddy Brewski

has a local appeal because I’m a Patriots fan,

but in the larger schema of NFL, I don’t know.

>> STEVE:  Junior Seau is probably the

biggest star to have ever had this happen to

him from the National Football League by far.

>> ALEX:  Had this happen to him?  Like

others, like his story, or his death?

>> STEVE:  There are other football

players within the last five years who have

taken their own lives because of supposed

damage to the brain and injuries and their

lives not going the way they wanted them to.

There was a gentleman from the Bears who, I

don’t remember the name, I don’t even remember

the position that he played but he shot himself

in the chest with a shotgun and he donated his

brain to doing study, to doing studies of like

brain damage from NFL players from all the hits

and everything because he couldn’t take it

anymore, so he took his own life and said, take

the brain, figure it out, figure out how to

prevent this from happening to other people.

>> ALEX:  Wow.

>> STEVE:  Yes.  Junior Seau is not the

first person to have done this and this is not

the first time he tried to kill himself.

>> ALEX:  Well, he said he fell asleep at

the road.  Are you talking about that incident?

>> STEVE:  Yes, I’m talking about when he

drove over the cliff, but he’s currently no

longer among us, so I’m less inclined to

believe that he fell asleep.  At the time I

thought sure, he just fell asleep.  I don’t

really believe that anymore.

>> ALEX:  That really frightened me.

>> STEVE:  Me too.

>> ALEX:  Because there was a moment in

which I was driving down the road and so many

thoughts going through my head of, it’s just

like this whelming, looming like angst of life.

I don’t want to use that term a lot but

just that — things and seeing people on their

cell phones, or — I was at a rest stop on

Naspike 90 and seeing like this mother like

wrestling with her two kids and being upset at

her own life, I could recognize that, and then

to hear this guy who I’ve seen play for the

Patriots and wealthy, fit, looks good —

>> STEVE:  Here’s a great statistic.

>> ALEX:  — take his own life, I was

like, what do I really have to be worried


>> STEVE:  Just as a side note, seventy

eight percent — this is data coming straight

from the NFL — seventy eight percent of the

players who graduate — I’ll use that term —

>> ALEX:  Retired.  I heard about this


>> STEVE:  — are either broke, divorced,

financially bankrupt, they have no money, they

have nothing.  Seventy eight percent of the

players that played in that league.

Unbelievable.  Unbelievable that it’s that


>> ALEX:  I saw something like that too

where it’s like two thirds of everyone who

retires from the NFL becomes bankrupt.

>> STEVE:  I think they used the term

alumni.  I don’t think they said retired

because I think it expanded I think beyond just

the player pool.

>> ALEX:  So like coaches and stuff like


>> STEVE:  Maybe.  I think coaches are

included in this as well.  I think.  I think it

was staff in general, I’m not sure about that


>> ALEX:  That’s interesting.  I’d like to

get more specifics on that.

>> STEVE:  Belicheck’s divorced.  Bill

Parcells divorced.

>> ALEX:  Isn’t that crazy?

>> STEVE:  That’s just kind of the nature

of the beast.

>> ALEX:  Is that because of just sheer

determination to succeed at one particular


>> STEVE:  Yeah, I think this really does

just come down to these guys are so devoted to

their craft they probably should not have

gotten married and had these families, and if

their families — when their families came

about, when they got married and they started

planning on having kids, everyone needed to be

aware of the fact that this was what you are

looking forward to.

This was what life was going to be, it

wasn’t just going to suddenly go away.  Tom

Coughlin who coached the Giants is going to be

70 this year, or somewhere in that

neighborhood.  You can do this for a very long

time in the National Football League.  Lou

Belicheck is almost in his 60s.  That’s

unbelievable.  They’re all older men who —

Sean Payton is young, the Saints head coach.

He’s young.

>> ALEX:  The Steelers coach is young too.

>> STEVE:  No, well, all right.  He’s

actually young.  Sean Payton is young and he’s

probably still in like his 50s.  He’s a young

coach.  He might be 45.

>> ALEX:  The Steelers coach, he’s in his

mid-30s.  38 or something.

>> STEVE:  They’re players.

>> ALEX:  Yeah.  He has that spunky —

>> STEVE:  There’s another guy who was —

oh no, he just got fired.  That does not count.

>> ALEX:  That does not count.

>> STEVE:  The former coach of the Tampa

Bay Buccaneers whose name is totally escaping

me, but —

>> ALEX:  Pulling the threads together of

sheer dedication to the craft, is that a level

of insanity?  Is that a level of perfection?

To actually bring up Steve Wazowski — I don’t

know if I’m saying his name right, “The Waz” —

he was from Apple computers, the interview, and

I talked to him a lot and I remember one thing

resonating strong within me was, he said, live

in the middle.  I’ve always been a fan of

living in the middle.

So when Steve Jobs is building Apple and

becoming huge, he steps down and obviously took

his money and went away from the limelight of

it all and it just makes me wonder if there is

a grain of truth to that, because there’s a

level of insanity to try to be the top of

something and to have these athletes who push

themselves physically as a person who — focus

on fitness now, yeah, to imagine someone who is

just working hard, this is what they do for a

living and train, and it’s not easy.  And it’s

all time, this is the argument we talk about,

it’s all time.  That’s all it is, is how do you

want to spend your time.

>> STEVE:  You get such a finite window to

do it.  Seau got twenty years in the NFL, that

is beyond unbelievable.  Twelve years he was a

pro baller.  Twelve years he was considered —

for me personally this guy was like a hero of

mine as a kid.

This was one of the first football players

I really knew, because in like sixth and

seventh and eighth grade when I really started

getting into football and really start to

understand the game and the science of the game

and really started to learn about it, he was

one of the faces of the league.  He was the

linebacker for the San Diego Chargers and he

was it, he was the guy, he was like a Ray

Lewis-like figure, where everybody knows who

this guy is, everybody in the league.  He was

never going to be — to make a modern

comparison — this is going to be lost on

you — he’s more like a Patrick Willis, who is

a star in the league but is never going to be a

guy who is defensive player of the year or up

for like an MVP type of award.  He’s not that

kind of guy but he’s phenomenal at what he

does.  Seau was that guy for a number of years.

>> ALEX:  We hear now of this unfortunate

end.  How?  What drove him to this point?  And

now they talk about — is it a medical

condition of, you know, hits in the head type

of thing?

>> STEVE:  That’s where we’re going to go

with this.

>> ALEX:  So it’s a physical thing over a


>> STEVE:  They’re going to talk about

multiple concussions and head traumas.  I’m

less inclined to believe that Seau had a whole

lot of that.  Here’s what I think —

>> ALEX:  Because the other comparison I

hear is like road rage within the wrestling

industry and spousal abuse.

>> STEVE:  A lot of wrestlers that I even

grew up watching are long since dead.  Long

since dead.

>> ALEX:  And they weren’t that old.

>> STEVE:  Macho Man Randy Savage died

recently.  He was in his, I think, 60s at the

oldest.  He wasn’t that old.

>> ALEX:  He was ripped and out of his

head though.  I’m talking about that adrenaline

coursing through his body frequently, whether

it’s steroids or otherwise —

>> STEVE:  Which, by the way, I’m not

totally sure a lot of those guys were doing

steroids.  I’m on the fence about that one

because I know guys have talked about getting

suspended for it and whatnot, so I’m not sure

how dirty that industry is, but we’re certainly

not talking about a professional — like normal

professional athletics where it is considered

an advantage to take steroids.  We’re talking

about people who are just trying to look good

and pull off a show.  But back to just —

>> ALEX:  Junior Seau?

>> STEVE:  It’s bugging me.  It really is.

Here’s what I think happened to him:  I think

he went through a divorce, he was in the league

for twenty years, that was all he had, he

saw —

>> ALEX:  Did he retire?  Did he step

down?  He did.

>> STEVE:  A couple of times.

>> ALEX:  He came back.

>> STEVE:  Belicheck kind of like tapped

him on the shoulder with one of our shitty

defense and said hey, be on the practice

squad — which now, because I know Belicheck,

being an avid Patriots fan — or at least I

perceive him to be some kind of genius — I

know that he saw something being as kind of

wrong with Seau and he was depressed.

He said, all right, you were good for me.

Be like a player coach now.  Help show the next

generation, be a part of this.  Take that next

step, be that next guy.  You can’t be the guy

making the tackle, but show the guy how to make

the tackle.  You know what I’m saying?

>> ALEX:  Get on him when he makes a bat

and that kind of thing.

>> STEVE:  Be that guy.  You can still do

that, and I feel like that’s just never really

clicked with Junior and he went through the

divorce and his family life was falling apart,

and he lost — he just can’t do what he’s been

doing for his whole life.

>> ALEX:  I think what is a good summation

about this is Rocky 2.  No, Rocky 4.  When

they’re having that discussion, Apollo Creed,

and Apollo has that burning desire to like be a

warrior and he talks to Rocky about like, we

have to do this, Rocky, it’s in our blood, we

have to fight and he ends up getting killed by

Ivan Drago and it’s like that moment of — I

had resonated with that notion of, some people

just have this burning desire to be a musician,

a boxer, a filmmaker.

>> STEVE:  And I think Seau — I think the

problem with that is you can’t — it’s

incredibly difficult to turn off, and I think

Seau couldn’t turn it off and I think that he

decided to — assuming at this time, I’m

assuming it’s a suicide because that’s the only

things that have been mentioned so far — I’m

assuming he hasn’t been killed, because if he’s

been killed this conversation completely

changes but I think he just had enough.  He had

just had enough.  My life as I have built it to

this point is over, I don’t want to rebuild it,

I’m done.

>> ALEX:  That’s where I go to where it’s

like, well, just go play some video games, man,

like go veg in a corner and enjoy what life has

to offer.

>> STEVE:  I agree.  I especially agree

having seen his mother with all those

television cameras in front of her having just

heard that her son committed suicide.

>> ALEX:  Wait, they jumped her?

>> STEVE:  No, she did like a press

conference kind of thing.

>> ALEX:  Like a fucking TMZ thing, like a

“Hey, hey, Mrs. Seau”?

>> STEVE:  You wanted immediate “My life

is not as bad as I thought it was”?  Go watch

the four minutes of her on camera.  It’s

like —

>> ALEX:  Does she talk about her life?

>> STEVE:  She’s speaking in tongues,

she’s so upset.  She really is.  She’s yelling

at God for half of it.  There was like some

heavy shit going on.  That’s not cool.  The

saddest part of this, Seau has four kids.

>> ALEX:  Really?

>> STEVE:  Junior Seau has four children

or had four children.  I think all girls.  Four


>> ALEX:  With this one divorced —

>> STEVE:  I don’t know, I assume so.  I

haven’t heard otherwise, but I don’t know for

certain if that’s the case.  He’s got four


>> ALEX:  You have something to live for

at that point.

>> STEVE:  You had kids.  Your life’s not

about you anymore when you have kids, that’s

kind of how it works.  Thanks, Mom and Dad.

>> ALEX:  We’re coming around Mother’s Day

soon, so that’s a moment to take note.

>> STEVE:  Four kids.

>> ALEX:  And it’s just a lot of — I’m

making broad generalizations here, but there’s

a lot of people that — doesn’t Randy Moss have

three or four kids too or something?

>> STEVE:  I don’t know if he’s got a lot

of kids.  I know there was a quarterback for

the New York Jets who has nine children with

eight different women — and his name is

Antonio Crimani, by the way, and he’s having

twins.  Twins are on the way with his current

girlfriend/wife/thing/whatever it is.

>> ALEX:  Moment in time.

>> STEVE:  Eleven children, and he’s

probably still not done.  At that point, rent a

movie.  Do something else, really.  You want to

talk about somebody who’s going to be in that

seventy eight percent when he’s out?  He’s

going to be dead fucking — he’s probably broke

now.  And he’s playing in the NFL.  He’s


>> ALEX:  It’s escapism for him at this

point.  What does McIntyre want to do?

Sixteen.  He calls it pagan.

>> STEVE:  He’s a pagan.  I don’t think

religion has anything to do with it.

>> ALEX:  I thought it was like Amish —

>> STEVE:  He wants sixteen children with

four different women.  That’s what he wants to


>> ALEX:  That’s a life plan.  Can you

fault him for that?  That needs to exist at

some point.

>> STEVE:  There is a gentleman in

India who has — I think it is ninety seven

kids, unbelievable.  And at that point you’re

not really a father to them anymore, you’re

just — you’re just the origin point of life.

You’re just the genetic material that started

this clan, that’s all you are.

>> ALEX:  You are playing god, sir.

>> STEVE:  That’s definitely not with the

same woman obviously, either.  No it’s not.  It

can’t be.  That is a vending machine.  That

is — whatever vending machine is in Indian.

>> ALEX:  The vending machine of India.

>> STEVE:  Unbelievable.  Back to the less

humorous.  I don’t want to say I get it because

then everybody’s going to be like, I get it,

Steve’s suicidal, he just admitted it, but I

understand that notion of, what you’ve tried to

build is gone, you have nothing left, ball is

in your court, what do you want to do here?

>> ALEX:  There’s also the moment of peril

I can see perceived as like, is what I’m doing

really working?  And working is this notion

because you get fucked over, like especially

for a man who is done with his career, which

was his life essentially, and it’s classic

Death of a Salesman.

>> STEVE:  I’ve never —

>> ALEX:  Death of a Salesman is a story

of a dude who just loses his job or like gets

fired and can no longer be a salesman and

that’s all he’s been doing his whole life and

he just has no purpose for living.  At least,

that’s my interpretation of it, like — Alex

retells movies.

>> STEVE:  Alex does plays, he does


>> ALEX:  If that is not how a movie is, I

think what I have said would be a good theme to

bring up in a story, Death of a Salesman.  I’m

just —

>> STEVE:  Arthur Miller, I apologize.

>> ALEX:  I’m proving the point that I can

sow a good seed and tell a good story.  I’m

trying to tell the story of working steps and

trying to put my finger on it the way I have

Death of a Salesman, but the point is,

motivation for living, you lose it.  It’s like,

why do this anymore?

>> STEVE:  I want Death of a Salesman to

be about a cheerleading team just for that


>> ALEX:  Death of a Salesman.

>> STEVE:  He’s dead [sound effects].

They all have briefcases instead of pom-poms,

cutting each other because it’s incredibly

dangerous.  Why did we suggest it?  Because he

was a salesman and he’s gonna die.

>> ALEX:  It’s dark and grim.  I know what

you’re saying, because suicide is a touchy

thing to talk about because it’s one of those

things — if you start talking about your own

needs or dark thoughts you’ve had, it’s like

whoa, and I heard about this one thing on WTF,

another podcast I listen to, about this one

syndrome that they talk about women have when

they have a kid, it’s called unwanted thought

syndrome where it’s like, oh my god, I just

thought about killing my baby, oh my god, does

that mean I want to kill my baby?  Oh my god,

I’m thinking about killing my baby, and they no

longer want to be near the baby anymore because

they think they’re going to kill it and it just

perpetuates its own demise and its own like —

>> STEVE:  I’m glad that’s a thing

because —

>> ALEX:  Unwanted thought theory.  So

it’s okay to think thoughts, just if they go

away and you don’t dwell on them, then you’re

fine but if you start like holding onto the

thought thinking about, like, you shouldn’t be

thinking about it, now you’re perpetuating this

like unwanted thought fucking syndrome.

>> STEVE:  I get that.  I get it.  Suicide

has a tendency of like, you just have a bad day

and you’re like, and you’re like, I just want

to die.  People Tweet about that shit or

Facebook post about it and that’s where I draw

the line where it’s like, no, if you ever gets

to the point where you need to share your

shitty day or moment in time there’s a better

way to do that.

>> ALEX:  It’s like come on, dude, this is

why Facebook —

>> STEVE:  That’s like a lack of maturity

type of thing but there’s that like serious

moment of like, you’re alone in your room —

here’s what’s been hitting me.

>> ALEX:  It’s fucking raining.

>> STEVE:  It’s fucking snowing.

>> ALEX:  I’m just going to play smoky

jazz on my Spotify playlist, like I had this

rainy Sunday and I was like this is the most

saddest day ever, like if I had to paint the

picture —

>> STEVE:  Here’s what has really fucked

with me recently.  I’ve come to grips with my

own mortality more and more, and it’s gotten to

a point where all of the memories that I have

from being a child I know are gone.  They’re

finite and they’re gone and they’re never

coming back.  Those moments of time are gone.

>> ALEX:  You could re-create them, but —

>> STEVE:  No, you can’t re-create them.

>> ALEX:  You could try to re-create them

but you can’t.

>> STEVE:  Those instances are gone, that

is the annals of history, it does not exist, it

will never be — fuck.

>> ALEX:  We are moving forward through

time.  It’s all time.  I can just say something

right now and be like, I’m going to put a tree

in my backyard, and you’re like bullshit.  It’s

just like, give me the fucking time.

>> STEVE:  That was an interesting want to


>> ALEX:  It’s one of those things that’s


>> STEVE:  I didn’t know you had a green


>> ALEX:  I’ve been thinking about

gardening because I’ve been eating fruits and

vegetables and making a compost heap.

>> STEVE:  You should — I should sit you

down with my father.  He’s been gardening for a

long time.

>> ALEX:  I’m not ready to devote the time

to it, right now I’ve been devoting a lot of

time to cooking and taking photos of that so

I’ve been raising skills points in those

levels, and compost is like something — once,

you know, the career or whatever life starts

panning out monetarily, then you can start —

>> STEVE:  Compost, it’s the fucking pile

of garbage outside.  It’s organic garbage.

That’s all you’ve got to do, throw shit in a

fucking pile and throw dirt on it.  That’s a

compost pile.  You’re done.

>> ALEX:  What would I want that for?  To

garden with?

>> STEVE:  It’s richer soil.

>> ALEX:  I’m not going to garden.  I’m

not ready to garden yet, is my point.

>> STEVE:  Okay, but composting in and of

itself is not tricky process.

>> ALEX:  What would I want a fucking

bucket full of garbage for?

>> STEVE:  Well, now — now, I’m not

saying you can go out —

>> ALEX:  You’re saying in life.

>> STEVE:  I’m saying in general, you made

it sound like the hardest thing in the world,

“I’ve got to learn how to compost.”  Throw

orange peels, throw some dirt on it.

>> ALEX:  Oh, no, I like to read about

certain things, like think about the best way

to compost.  I think somebody has written an

article about it that I could read on the


>> STEVE:  Everything exists on the


>> ALEX:  I have lived my life by the

Internet.  I’m going to tie my shoe today, how

to tie my shoe, and you learn a new way of

tying your shoe.  God knows I did, thanks to

Ted.  I learned a new way to tie my shoe thanks

to Ted.  I’m not even wearing shoes I have to


>> STEVE:  You wear boat shoes.  You don’t

need that.

>> ALEX:  It’s just slippers essentially

that I wear around.

>> STEVE:  Those are like moccasin-type

things.  Those are fine.  You can wear those

out and be totally fine.  That’s fine.

>> ALEX:  Earlier today at the meeting at

Newton we were talking about brands and what

kind of brands do you wear, and I was like, I

don’t wear any brands.

>> STEVE:  If really, honestly, if you

could just make your own clothes and it didn’t

take that much time, you would.

>> ALEX:  I would.  I’ll pick this fucking

door and this old zipper and maybe this canvas


>> STEVE:  I was at least going to say,

like a shower curtain or something, you would

do — like something made of fabric.

>> ALEX:  Like a hubcap and a fucking

washboard, a cheese grater.

>> STEVE:  Cheese grater, as a codpiece.

No, I like mine better.

>> ALEX:  You’re absolutely right.  I have

lived this life of, you know, I’m surrounded —

>> STEVE:  This is here.

>> ALEX:  This is meant to be worn, right?

And people love that shit.  Again at Newton,

the person I meet was like, oh, I didn’t

recognize you without the hat, from Dine &

Sign, there was a couple episodes with the hat

and I said, it’s a hat, you’re supposed to wear

a hat.  Somebody intended this has to be worn,


>> STEVE:  So I wore it on camera.

>> ALEX:  Yeah, that’s it.  What’s wrong?

>> STEVE:  Because most people have a

train of thought as to why they’re wearing

certain things.  What I’m wearing right now is

because I don’t have any clean clothing.

>> ALEX:  What’s wrong with what you’re


>> STEVE:  Nothing.  I’m just saying, but

like this is it.

>> ALEX:  Do you think about that often?

Do you think about your wardrobe, like you wake

up and you say, today’s the day I’m going to

wear a fucking polo and slacks?

>> STEVE:  I think of my appearance,

wardrobe included in that.

>> ALEX:  Today I’m scrubbing out and I’m

going to have fucking sweatpants and a —

>> STEVE:  You remember — you have to

remember this, the battle gear?  Fucking

sweatpants and a ratty-ass shirt, went to

class, took an exam that I didn’t study for and

just fucking banged it out, probably cheated my

balls off and then walked out.  It’s a battle

gear day.  Usually those days I went to get an

Angus third pounder at McDonald’s, total slob.

Battle gear.

>> ALEX:  I haven’t really thought about

that, I’ve just thought about different

aesthetics, especially now that clothes fit me

differently, so it’s like half my battle is

finding stuff that fits.

>> STEVE:  I got a used shirt right now.

This shirt is three sizes too big.

>> ALEX:  I recognize, I guess half my

look has become wearing baggy clothes.

>> STEVE:  I used to do that.

>> ALEX:  I don’t like it any more.  I’d

rather wear —

>> STEVE:  It’s nice wearing form-fitting

stuff.  It’s also for me almost impossible.

>> ALEX:  Why?

>> STEVE:  Because my body is not

proportioned.  I would have to get custom-made


>> ALEX:  Like fucking Stretch Armstrong?

>> STEVE:  No, hang on.  You know those

button-down shirts that I wore when I had a job

for a little while?  I kept ripping them.  I’m

not kidding, like five of them ripped in the

same spot each time right at the elbow, or like

— I do not fit in those shirts.

>> ALEX:  You have callousy elbows, like

little razors, diamonds, like scales.  You have

scales on your elbows.

>> STEVE:  It’s always the same, there are

ways to fix that particular thing, but like if

it wasn’t that, probably it would have been

something in the back.  Like, I am not

proportioned to wear shirts off of a rack type

of deal.  The normal quote unquote human figure

is not what I’ve got.  I have a very big ass

and very big shoulders.

I do, I always have.  So like I’m aware of

that as I go out and it’s kind of always been

like I dress accordingly because this is what

fits, sort of like your mentality.  But I’m

always aware of it, I’m aware that I like to

look good, so I want to wear these things,

these things work well together.

>> ALEX:  I don’t know if I’ve consciously

taken it to that level because —

>> STEVE:  I’m a vain son of a bitch.  I

really am.

>> ALEX:  But at the same time you’re vain

for yourself, because like how do you know what

looks good is actually good?

>> STEVE:  Isn’t vain kind of for yourself


>> ALEX:  Well no, I’m saying your

perspective is, I think I make myself look

good, but no, you think you make yourself look

good in what you think is good because —

>> STEVE:  Then I’ve made an invalid

assumption.  You’re assuming that I’m

considering what I’m wearing to be good.

>> ALEX:  Really, so you don’t enjoy the

things you wear?

>> STEVE:  No, I do, but to me I kind of

have your attitude of, I don’t really care all

that much.  What do you like?  You like these

things?  Okay, cool, done.  There you go.  I’m


>> ALEX:  Problem solved, and you look

good.  I’ve sort of taken a different approach

of, I’m going to wear this —

>> STEVE:  Because it’s here.

>> ALEX:  And I don’t care what comes of

that, and is that just a bad sense of style, is

that a bad sense of dressing, or is it his own

sense of style?  You make that work, like —

you just do.

>> STEVE:  You have to have a certain je

ne sais quoi to pull that off.  In English

terms, you’ve got to have the balls to just not

give a shit, which if you don’t —

>> ALEX:  I have the balls.

>> STEVE:  You don’t give a shit, so we’re


>> ALEX:  It’s all about having balls.

Going back to E.T., I look at some things, it’s

like it takes a set of balls to tell someone, I

need a shot that looks like this.

>> STEVE:  Sir, that will cost fifty five

thousand dollars.

>> ALEX:  Really, it’s just like, I want a

shot of this:  Vertigo shot of the town coming

in and then this guy walks over and then he

pulls out a walkie-talkie and then a vertigo

shot back.  I was impressed at these like

things that were designed and I broke it down,

like how would you communicate that to someone

either visually or in text, and it was very

cool.  It was one of those — the power of


>> STEVE:  I agree.

>> ALEX:  And being vain.  We strive to be

great in all things, awesome.

>> STEVE:  That was a hell of a


>> ALEX:  That is what the reason for

living is, to be awesome at things and that’s

what sort of happened to Junior Seau is like —

>> STEVE:  I’m no longer awesome,

therefore he just — and I can’t fathom what

was going through his mind exactly because I’ve

never achieved the level of success that he —

>> ALEX:  This talks about — I forget

what movie it was from, there was a quote where

it was like, never will I enjoy the man who

makes his success too quickly, that notion of a

person who has an overnight success will

squander it away or not truly appreciate it as

someone who has worked really hard for a long

amount of time and then gets to that point he

always knew he deserved, it just didn’t happen

as quick as he wanted it to, so he appreciates

it more and it’s like yeah, but once you get to

that point, you worked really hard and you no

longer have it, how do you handle that?

>> STEVE:  I don’t know.  I really don’t.

I hope eventually I will be in a position of

Junior Seau where I’ve had a phenomenal career

and then —

>> ALEX:  And then you just perpetuate it.

>> STEVE:  That’s it, it’s now over, now

move onto the next phase of life.  I hope at

some point that happens to me because at least

then I would have had the success.

>> ALEX:  But in your mind you will

perpetuate some level of attaining goodness in

the next phase.

>> STEVE:  But I’m sure Junior Seau

thought so too, I want to rock this out and

then I’ll be this guy forever and I’ll do this

and this and this, and shit just didn’t go his

way, and that was it.

>> ALEX:  That’s deep.  This is a deep

half to end on, but it made me think about

things and that at the very least we can have

people thinking about things.  But hey, wait,

before you go, don’t forget to follow us at


>> STEVE:  Or Facebook.com/OpenLounge,

which I have been using more and more lately.

>> ALEX:  Facebook? Taking that on the


>> STEVE:  Yes.

>> ALEX:  It’s very important because we

stepped out, we’re going to step back in to

give you the social media stuff.  That’s very

important.  You can make this show your own,

especially with the transcription process.

>> STEVE:  I’ve actually started talking

to Brandon like, just one-on-one.

>> ALEX:  Via Twitter?

>> STEVE:  No, Facebook.  I don’t really

use Twitter like that.  Twitter is like kind of

a separate thing.

>> ALEX:  It’s like Instant Message with

the world, so you can talk to us anytime,

especially with hopefully our newfound

interested audience.

>> STEVE:  He’s calling the fuck people

rule the D’Toolio rule, which I very much like.

>> ALEX:  If you’re interested about that

rule, once again, follow us on Twitter and

Facebook.  But I think we’re going to end on

that note so this one is for him, for all those

people that like to think out there.  We’re

covering the tab tonight.  I’m very stricken by


>> STEVE:  Don’t forget to tip your


>> ALEX:  Yeah, please don’t forget to tip

her.  She might need it.

>> STEVE:  She might.

>> ALEX:  We’ll see you next week, and

we’ll save you a seat.

(Background noise)

>> BRANDON:  Hey, what are you guys still

doing here?  Go check out Podsmiths.com.

The “Dough” Raising Mom

with Joel Boggess

“The ‘Dough’ Raising Mom” with Grace Becker

Podcast #100 on February 20, 2012

Link to podcast

Transcript provided by:
Speech Text Access LLC

>>JOEL:    Hi, it’s me, Joel; and you’re listening to Finding Your Voice.  And joining us on the show is The ‘Dough’ Raising Mom, Grace Becker.  And I have been looking forward to having you on the show, Grace, and we have finally made it happen.  So thanks so much for joining us.

>>GRACE:    Oh, Joel, thanks so much for asking me.  I think this is going to be fun.

>>JOEL:    this will be a lot of fun, Grace.  And it’s always good to talk to you.

>>GRACE:    well, I agree.

>>JOEL:    I just love the name of your business, Dough Raising Mom, and it’s actually a pretty accurate description of what it is that you do.  You coach stay-at-home moms how to make money out of their own kitchen.

And I look forward to hearing about some of the exciting things that you’re doing with your moms, but before we get into that, Grace, what gave you the idea of starting a business right there out of your own kitchen?

>>GRACE:    Well, Joel, we have a large family.  We have 12 kids and I am a stay-at-home mom, obviously, for, you know, for obvious reasons.  And our kids have been in parochial school the whole time.  And if you’ve ever been involved in, you know, a parochial school, you know that every other word is fundraising.  And so our children were going to school and they needed to build a new gym and, you know, they sent us a letter and said gee, your, you know, your portion of helping with this project is X amount of dollars.  And we were like seriously?  We did not know how we were going to do that.

>>JOEL:    And that happened at least 12 times?

>>GRACE:     That—yeah, yeah, and that was a long time ago.  So anyway we came up with this crazy idea of making cinnamon rolls and selling them after the church services and just donating all the money to church.  And so we went to the committee and said this is what we would do.  We’re using time talent treasure and they came and looked at us and kind of, you know, just oh I don’t know this skeptical—we certainly had the impression that they were pretty skeptical about it, but they said okay give it a try; and so we did.

And the very first time that we did it we sold, sold out immediately.  I mean with one church service we were done; handed in the money and from there on, from there it just grew.  And we paid off a five-year pledge in, I don’t know, something like a year and a half.

>> JOEL:    Wow.

>>GRACE:    And, and then my children never played a basketball game at that gym because we moved, but as a result of that my kids then became involved in other things.  You know, other groups that they were involved in and they needed to raise money and, and different kids kept coming back and saying, Mom, can you make rolls for this?  Could we do a cinnamon roll for that?  And we kept doing that.

And then I started doing it for other churches, for other groups, and it was all this because my kids new somebody that we were helping them.  And people kept saying all along the way, why don’t you do this for a business?  And I would look at them and think do you have any idea how much work this is?  You must be crazy.  But, you know that seed was planted and eventually I—we started looking at it, seriously.

And so I started out by going to our church because we had a licensed commercial kitchen and at that time in our state you could not bake and sell food to the public without working in a licensed commercial kitchen.  And so I went and I asked if there was any way I could use the kitchen.  And we just struck a deal and I agreed to do some cinnamon rolls sales for them.  I made sure that the kitchen was kept clean.  I met the health department when they would come out to expect it; so I had some duties related with it, but certainly it was a way for me to get started with no cost at all.

And, so, I mean, no cost, I would have to take in everything.  I mean all the flour, all the sugar, you know everything that I was baking, and I would drag it all up there; every single night at two in the morning and I would stay till seven in the morning, but—and I would have things cleaned up and I would be out because I had to get back home for my kids to go to school and then my husband would take all of the deliveries.  We were doing breakfast, corporate breakfast catering at that time, and he would take those on his way to work and deliver them.

And so, you know, I did that—we did that for almost a year, I think, but that’s got really tiring because the busier I got the more I began to realize I wasn’t going to be able to keep that up, you know, just physically caring all that stuff in and out.  And so we started looking at the possibility of adding—well first we thought about renting space and that’s a whole another story; we looked at it and decided not to.  And then we decided we were going to try and put a licensed commercial kitchen in our home.

>>JOEL:    I’m surprised you didn’t already have one because you do have 12 kids.

>>GRACE:    Yes, I do and so I mean I was used to baking like this and everything, but anyway, we—it was, it was a long road to get the approval for the kitchen, but we did.  And so then we added a licensed commercial kitchen to our home and I was able to stay home and work at home from then on.  And that was just, that was, that was such a blessing that I could get up at, you know, two in the morning and I went downstairs to my commercial kitchen and I would just be able to be working, but I would be—I was at home.

And that just worked wonderfully for me for a lot of years.  And part of the, you know, we continued to do the cinnamon roll fundraising and I just want to tell you a story about one of my sons who asked me if I would help him do a cinnamon roll sale.

>>JOEL:    Yeah, what happened?

>>GRACE:    Well, he had been chosen to be an apostle for—it was the eighth grade year and those we’re supposed to be the leaders, you know, the example kids and all of that stuff.  And at Christmas time our pastor said—he took the 12 kids and he divided them into three groups and he gave each group $300.  And he said now I would like you guys to go out and bless someone in the community with this money.  And then I want you to come back and tell the story of what you did with it.

And so these kids sat around and they thought, well, you know, how would they go out and hand out hundred dollar bills.  That was what one of the groups was going to do or, you know, they, they had all these ideas of what they would do with this $300.

And then, Daniel, my son, came and said mom if we took $300 how much four and sugar could we buy and would you do a cinnamon roll sale for us?  And so I said that I would and we did that because, you know, he said mom, you know, $300 in the grand scheme of things giving that away isn’t going to help that many people.  So the kids came over.  We baked all night.  We did the cinnamon roll sale and they turned their $300 into $3600.

And so then they couldn’t, they could decide what to do with it so it kind of sat in a bank account at church for a while.  And that the kids were eighth-graders and toward the end of the year they were having an eighth grade retreat…

>>JOEL:    Wait a minute, eighth-graders…

>>GRACE:    Eighth-graders.

>>JOEL:    With your help.

>>GRACE:    Yeah.

>>JOEL:    I can’t even do the math, that’s like 100 times of what they started with, but, yeah, okay, eighth-graders.

>>GRACE:    Yeah, they did real well.  And so then they were at the end of their year they were going for their eighth grade retreat; the kind of final sum up your whole eight years of education kinds of things and just before that we had a minister who came and he was someone who worked in Third World countries.

And he was talking to church and he was just talking about the living conditions and the fact that people don’t, you know, they might only eat every third day and they live in little cardboard shacks or those kinds of things.  And he said, you know, in Honduras for $2500 you can build a house for somebody.  And if we have a donor who will donate $2500 we have bank who will match it and will build a house twice as big.

And so we were driving to this retreat and one of the eighth grade boys said Mrs. Becker did you hear what, you know, what the minister said yesterday about that building a house?  And I said, yeah.  And the kid said, you know, if we did a cinnamon roll sale we could build a house.

And so, I mean, it was very, I mean it was the beginning of May and I think two weeks later was, or maybe at the end of April, a couple of weeks later was Mother’s Day.  And the kids said could we do one on Mother’s Day?  And so we made things happen really fast.

Long story short the kids came over, we made cinnamon rolls, again.  They made another 35 or $3600

>>JOEL:    Okay, they, basically, duplicated their efforts

>>GRACE:    Yes, they did.  So then they had to spend all the money.  Now this was where it got really fun because the kids were sitting there counting their money and they’re counting out $2500 and they put the sack of money down on the floor; there’s our house.  And then they’re looking through the list of other things they could buy and they’re going, wow we’ve got enough left we could buy two water pumps; there’s our water pump and that will be water pumps for two villages.  And we still have money left, so now we could buy—oh they could buy a goat for a family or maybe it was a pair of goats for a family so they could start a goatherd.

And then they had enough left over that they could buy meals for a family for a month or something like that.  And, then, they still had their initial money from the first sale so then they went around our town and they gave money to an organization called Operation Breakthrough where they have—they care for single moms who are living at poverty level and they gave money to a reading program and they gave money to a church that was in an impoverished part of town and helped start a Dave Ramsey program there; but it was just really fun to watch those kids get…

>>JOEL:    Right.

>>GRACE:    So involved.  I overheard one of the boys—and these were all boys—and I overheard one of the boys that night.  They—part of their job was wrapping the rolls in Saran wrap to get them ready to take and one of the boys was ripping off the Saran wrap and he said every time I put one of these pieces of Saran wrap on, I feel like I’m putting a nail on the house.

>>JOEL:     Wow.

>>GRACE:    It was really a very neat experience.

>>JOEL:    Yeah, tell me about that.  You, as a mom, seeing that go on in the mind of an eight-year-old—or, not an eight-year-old, an eighth grader—seeing how they’re putting together pieces of, gosh I can take this and then I can help with this project to just, yeah.

>>GRACE:    It’s very, very rewarding to see your kids get that involved.  And my other kids have done the same kinds of things where they’ve done cinnamon roll sales so they could go on mission trips and build habitat houses and…

>>JOEL:    You know what that is?

>>GRACE:    Hmm?

>>JOEL:    Now that is real education.

>>GRACE:    Yeah, yeah.  It’s been really cool to have the kids go and see the different phases of construction when they’re doing these habitat houses.  You know I think some of them—because they did that several times and I believe that at least one of the kids was able to be involved in the part where they handed the keys over to the family that took over the house.

I mean, it’s really, it’s so much bigger than just, you know, doing something to make money.  It was very—it’s been very cool.

And, so anyway, that part of it was something that I’m—I wasn’t doing the cinnamon rolls to make money for myself; I was doing it for, for these different groups, but then, Joel, I was—more and more churches came and started asking me would I do cinnamon rolls.  And, you know, as it spread I was getting churches that I had no connection to at all.  And then one day, one of the, you know, one of these people, one of the churches called me and said we did do the cinnamon roll sale for us and I was really kind of busy and I was thinking gosh I just don’t know if…

>>JOEL:    Wait a minute, a mother of 12 busy?

>>GRACE:    Yeah, really, and so they called and they said would you do this and I said to let you know I can’t say no; that’s a big part of my problem so I said well I guess so.  And they said okay, well now how much do we pay you for this?  And I was like pay me?  You want to pay me for this?

And to make a long story short they just said well we were just thinking if we could just split it with you.  Would that work for you?  And I was just really dumbfounded, but in that weekend I made $1500 and I started on a, you know, a Saturday morning.

And I didn’t do that very often, but as I started to think about, you know, all of my life one thing that had been so important to me was being a stay-at-home mom and so when I started thinking about where can I go from here?  Well part of it was I joined Free Agent Academy and that’s where you and I met.  And in the brainstorming groups as I was, you know, we were talking about things we had done in the past, that idea came up of why don’t you teach other stay-at-home moms to do this?

>>JOEL:    I remember that.

>>GRACE:    And that’s, that’s where the idea for doing this came from.

>> JOEL:    Right.  Coaching, single mom—or I’m sorry, no single moms, but stay at home moms…

>>GRACE:    Stay-at-home moms, yes.

>>JOEL:    To do, basically, what it is that you do.

>>GRACE:    Right.

>>JOEL:    You know, make money right out of their own kitchen.

>>GRACE:    Right and at the same time, usually you’re, you know, your best customer’s going to be things like youth groups or church groups or, you know, groups wanting to make money in 4-H groups, whatever and…

>>JOEL:    Yeah to…

>>GRACE:  They’re…

>>JOEL:    Go ahead

>>GRACE:    You know it’s a, it’s such a natural fit that, you know, you’re not only are you helping the kids raise the money—I had this kind of revelation one morning, Joel, when I was making cinnamon rolls the days that my son Daniel and his friends were going to go out and start distributing this money.

And so I was making rolls so that we could just take rolls to each group that we were going to and, you know, just kind of make a little, just kind of a little ceremony out of it everywhere we went.  And I was making those rolls and it just kind of hit me where I was looking at what I was using: the flour and the sugar and the yeast and eggs and, and I thought, you know, these are, simple, simple ingredients; this is something I took for granted my whole life that I was taking these ingredients and turning them into a product that could then be sold.

But it’s more than that because it’s, it generates us money to help, you know, these different missions or good causes, and I realized that each and every one of us has those same—the same potential within us and you can be using it every day and be totally blind to something that you take for granted that is something very simple.  It could be right in front of your face that those are the ingredients of how you can make your impact on the world.

>>JOEL:    Right.

>>GRACE:    How you can build a business that you can be passionate about.

>>JOEL:    Yes.

>>GRACE:    But we’re often so blind to that that we just don’t even see it.

>>JOEL:    What a revelation that was.

>>GRACE:    Yeah, it really was.

>>JOEL:    And what a wonderful story.  Thank you for sharing that with…

>>GRACE:    Oh, you’re welcome.

>>JOEL:    Indeed.  Tell me about some of the real moments that you’ve had with some of your clients, some of your moms.  You know, working in your kitchen, working in their kitchen, you know, what have been some of the revelations or the ah-ha moments that you’ve seen moms kind of come to in just in your work, together?

>>GRACE:    Well, I’ve had moms who come and they’ve never baked all and they have no idea what baking with yeast is like.  They’ve heard horror stories and they’re, they’re very hesitant.  They don’t, they don’t really think that they can, you know, they’re going to be able to be successful at making cinnamon rolls and being a baker and things like that.

And so the very first moms that I worked with at the very end I kind of did, we kind—I did a little video of them and they were going on my goodness we couldn’t believe how, you know, the different phases of the rolls where, you know, they rise and then you frost them and then you wrap them and—and we made 100 pans of rolls.

And just, you know, and as we went through that it was wow this is really neat.  I had no idea this was, you know, that this is how it all works and how it all comes together.  And so they were able to walk through the entire process of, you know, starting out with hot water and ending up delivering, you know, 100 pans of rolls to a church that’s going to sell them.  And that it’s, it is not rocket science; it’s a method that you just follow the steps and you, you just consistently repeat, repeat, repeat.

And so that has been, that has been a lot of fun because I don’t know that I’ve worked with anybody who has baked with yeast before

>> JOEL:    Okay.

>>GRACE:    Most of them have no experience, at all.  And by the end of the weekend—or I’ve also taught some bread baking classes and things like that—nd by the end of the time they feel very confident that they can go off and, and do what we learned over the weekend or do what we learned in the class.  And it’s been really, you know, it’s just this…

>>JOEL:    Well, what’s the most rewarding thing for you, Grace, when you see one of your moms?  You’ve got a great video up on your website, right now, at doughrasingmom.com.  What’s the most rewarding part for you?

>>GRACE:    Well, the most rewarding part, I think, would be, oh gosh, kind of when, when the light comes on and the disbelief and the lack of self-confidence they have in themselves turns from that, that real doubt to I can do this.  You know, that I didn’t think I could do this when we started and now I know I can do this.  And that’s, that’s very cool.

I mean, when you, when you feel like when they leave and they feel like I can’t wait to go back and start baking for my friends or my family, you know, because they’re going to be my test market here.  They’re going to be, they’re going to be the people I’m going to practice on kind of thing.  And, you know, I’m—I haven’t yet had received a bill for many of the families that had to enroll their family in Weight Watchers after that happened, but I did hear from one that they were concerned that there was going to be that kind of issue.

But anyway that, that has been, I guess, it’s been probably one of the most rewarding things.

>>JOEL:     Absolutely.  You know it’s amazing when people really get in touch with what their passionate about and then they combine that with things that they know how to do really well.  And you, Grace, you know, I’ve—we’ve known each other for a few years and you, you’ve got that passion to come alongside people and, you know, stay-at-home moms, coming alongside them and helping them, you know, learn about how they can make money out of their own kitchen.  That’s one of the things, but really it’s about helping them be empowered.

>>GRACE:     Yeah, Joel, I think you have, you know, you really have a good point there because I, at this point, I have, you know, my children are now getting older and so it’s—so we’re—I am able to be kind of in a unique position because I have children that are married and have children of their own and I still have a 14-year-old and so I’ve been able to see the results.  You know, this is how we brought these kids and so at this point we have seven college graduates; we have three who have advanced degrees, doctorates or, you know, they’re an attorney and they’re just good people.  I have a couple of kids in college.  And these kids, I think what I’m most proud about with my children is that they are such good hearted kids.

And I think part of that comes from the fact that I didn’t have to take them to daycare or to a babysitter.  And I feel—my heart goes out to moms who have to do that, but I was fortunate enough to be able to be at home and enjoy them.  You know, the time I had with my kids I got to be the person who raised them and that is something that I think, now with our economy, it’s so difficult for single income families to do that.  And you see moms who are forced to go to work and it’s not really their choice, but they simply have to do that.

And if there are moms that I can—you know, who are in a position where being able to raise some part-time money will make the difference between them being able to be a stay-at-home mom or not, then if what I could teach them would help them do that that would really be a big deal to me.

>>JOEL:     Absolutely.  Well, that, that’s where your heart is, Grace.  I remember this is the part where I start crying because this is what happened between you and me.  I remember sitting down with you at that—remember at that long table, but we were the only one sitting there?

>>GRACE:     Yeah, yep, yep.

>>JOEL:     And then I said—we didn’t even know each other, but I could hear what you were saying and I could hear the words in between what you were saying when you were, you know, kind of talking to the group about some of your dreams and desires and I remember we kind of spent 10, 15 minutes and you, you really expressed your passion and how you just wanted to help stay-at-home moms.  You wanted to, you know, be that, that force in their life or that, you know, teammate to help them, you know, move forward.  I remember, I remember that conversation

>>GRACE:     Yeah, I remember the conversation, very well.

>>JOEL:    Indeed.

>>GRACE:     And that beautiful setting in mountains.

>>JOEL:    Indeed it was.  Indeed it was.  Now, there’s all kinds of free tools and things that we can get involved in on your website.  Kind of walk us through that real quick and we’ll kind of come in for landing on that, if you don’t mind.

>>GRACE:     Okay.  On my website—well for one thing I just have some, I have quite a few of the favorite recipes that I have, but the past couple of weeks I’ve been doing a series of free coaching calls for people who would like to be able to do some of, you know, raise money from things that they can make in their kitchen.

And some of the things that we’ve been talking about is, are—people have different ideas of what their expertise is; what they, you know, what they totally enjoy making and so it’s, you know, we have about cake decorating and a chocolate tier and someone who wanted to do regular catering and people who just plain don’t know; they’re just kind of interested in what the possibilities might be.

And so we spent, we spent time talking about that and then we’ve—yesterday I talked a little bit about how you actually get started if you’re going to go full-blown, start a business.  And so I went into, some of the things I had to do to, you know, to get my business started when I had the corporate catering company.  And, you know, and all just the little things that go with it.  And I’m not an attorney and I would certainly say that to anyone, but you do have to make decisions when you start a business about what—how you’re going to have to set up whether it’s LLC or, you know, sole proprietorship or an S. Corp and just so I mean in your planning process you need to set things up and you need to make some decisions.

But one thing that I really, especially when talking and focusing on the stay-at-home moms, is don’t go out and spend a whole lot of money; test out that market and see if you can figure out where you fit.  And, you know, for me, we—I mean we made every mistake in the book so if I’ve got—I have, I have and I’m not so proud to say this, but I have a doctorate degree from the school of hard knocks because I’ve made every mistake that you could make.  And, but I’ve learned a lot and so we, we’ve talked a little bit about, you know, how do you get started and, you know, what are those first steps.

And, oh, in—I am just finishing and I was telling you this before, you know, when we were chatting, Joel, I have, I have been doing the classes here in my home in Kansas City because I have my in-home kitchen, but there’s a lot of expense in travel involved in that and so after a lot of encouraging, I’m finally going to have an online version where I have a video that’s very step-by-step and you’re watching; you’re watching me actually make rolls.

And I purposely made this video for people who’ve never made cinnamon rolls.  And I made them by hand.  Now I don’t do that in my kitchen, normally, because I’ve got commercial equipment, but I wanted people to get a feel for if you were starting from—that’s how I started that’s exactly how I started and, you know, making it by hand and, you know, when you—it goes a lot faster when you have a big mixer and all those kinds of things, but I wanted people—I wanted people to be able to see how to do it with where they’re at most likely right now.

>>JOEL:    Okay, that’s…

>>GRACE:    And then, I have written a manual, my business manual, and I also have a book on how I put the commercial kitchen in my home.

>>JOEL:     All right.

>>GRACE:    And I think we’re going to add a piece from our CPA about just the basic business part of it.  And we’re going to—I’m going to be ready to put all of that online, probably within the next month.

>>JOEL:    Okay, that’s…

>>GRACE:    So I’ll, I’ll have some, you know, some news flashes about that soon.

>>JOEL:     And we can…

>>GRACE:    But…

>>JOEL:    Go ahead.

>>GRACE:    And that’s, that’s one of the things that I have on my website.  But another thing that as I’ve had to go through this process, I’ve realized that if you want to get the word out you’re probably going to have to have your website and you’re going to have to start to learn how to use social media and those things.

And I certainly can’t brag that I’m, I’m learning social media, but I’m certainly—don’t have the hang of it quite yet, but I do, I do feel pretty confident that I am pretty adept at using WordPress and, I talk sometimes on that website about, you know, it doesn’t cost very much to have a website and I you can just start talking to the community out there; who are your customers going to be?

And so if you’re specializing in wanting to do decorated cakes and you’re going to be in the niche of making your cake specifically profession-oriented so your cakes are cakes that would be delivered to a doctor or a nurse or a teacher or, you know, a plumber or whatever and that’s your niche in the market; how you reach those people and how can they find you?

And something that I found in my catering company was that in the later years of that catering company most of my people, most of my customers went to my website first.  And so it’s pretty critical in this day and age to have a website where people…

>>JOEL:    That’s—it is.

>>GRACE:    Can connect with you.

>>JOEL:     It is.  Your website is very easy to navigate and we can learn about your book:  Make Money Baking at Home – Legally.

>>GRACE:    Yes.   Yeah, that’s the big, that’s the big catch of the book.

>> JOEL:    Yes, and not only that, but you also—when people sign up for your newsletter and your updates, they also get your top 10 favorite ideas for making money, baking.

>> GRACE:    Yeah, yeah.

>>JOEL:    And I think that’s, that’s a neat free gift that you have there on your website.  There’s videos to look at like your commercial kitchen video and there’s just a lot of other wonderful tools.  They’re on your website doughraisingmom.com.

Wonderful, wonderful.  Well, thank you so much, Grace, this is a…

>>GRACE:    Oh, thank you, Joel.

>>JOEL:    This has been a delight to have you on and I just appreciate your time.

(  music playing  )

>>GRACE:    Well, it’s been, it’s been so fun to reconnect with you.  It’s been really good to get back in touch and find out what’s going on and thank you for having me on your podcast.  This was really fun.

>>JOEL:    All the best, Grace.

>>GRACE:    All right.  Thanks, Joel.  Bye.

( end of music  )

Breaking Through, Part 1

with Joel Boggess

“Breaking Through” with Lance Wallnau
Part 1

Podcast #105 on March 7, 2012

Link to podcast

Transcript provided by:
Speech Text Access LLC

(  music playing  )

>>    I have a voice.

>>    I have a voice.

>>    I have a voice.

>>    And no one can find it but me.

>>    Knowing my voice is understanding who I really am.

>>    What excites me.

>>    And what I stand for.

>>    I owe it to myself.

>>    I owe it to my family.

>>    I owe it to God.  When you find your voice, you find a way back.

>>    You find a way back.

>>    You find a way back to yourself.

(  end of music playing  )

>>JOEL:    Hi, it’s me, Joel, and this is part one of a two-part interview series with Dr. Lance Wallnau.  And you can find him at lancelearning.com.

Hi, it’s me, Joel; and you’re listening to Finding Your Voice.  And joining us on the show today is—how do I introduce you Dr. Lance?  You’re a, you’re a gifted speaker; you’re a transformational coach; you travel all over the world helping organizations and leaders get in touch with their core purpose and their reason for being.  I don’t know, what should I say?

>>LANCE:    Well, that just shows I never could figure out what I did for a living so I just did a whole lot of stuff.

>>JOEL:    Did you even realize that you did that much?

>>LANCE:    Yeah, well, you know the truth is what I listen for now is whatever the client is calling for is typically how I’m doing.  So I work—right now I’m working with like a multibillion-dollar corporation in Indonesia doing executive training and coaching for a company with 30,000 employees.  So, you know, that’s, it’s—basically we, when you have—and this is like for your audience to know—when you plug into your passion and you find your gifting you’re not locked into any one job description.

>>JOEL:    Right.

>>LANCE:    You now can be multifaceted.

>>JOEL:    Absolutely and that’s actually one of the reasons that I wanted to have you on the show is because some of the things that I’ve heard you talk about as it relates to following your passion and tapping into your emotional drivers.  And kind of like to unpack some of your thoughts and ideas on that, if you don’t mind.

>>LANCE:     Sure.  Yeah, well, you know, what drove me to this was working in my background; was actually in the oil business and I was working in a place in Long Island which is, ironically, Babylon, New York.  And when I was in Babylon I was praying and—because I wanted to get Babylon I read the Bible and I said Babylon is someplace are supposed to flee, anyway.  I wanted to be in ministry and it never occurred to me that I could find my ministry in Babylon; I could find my calling in the world’s system and transform nations and people by actually doing what I’m called to do.

>> JOEL:    Right.

>> LANCE:    And then I started really unpacking and saying maybe I’m not the only person with the struggle.  Maybe lots of believers are trying to figure out how do I move from the work I’m doing to the work I’m called to do and is it only in ministry?  If I love God can it be someplace else?

>>JOEL:    Absolutely.  You know, it reminds me of a story.  About a year ago or so ago my wife and I were speaking at a women’s conference and right at the start of the conference one of the ladies said to me—we were going to talk about passion— and one of the ladies said you know I don’t want my passion; I want God’s passion.  And as godly and as spiritual as that sounds, during the course of the day she came to see things a little bit different.  But the way she framed it—she saw it as a godly thing to starve herself of passion in pursuit of, you know—

>>LANCE:    It’s crazy and you—I’ve seen it so frequently.  It’s scary because what a religious spirit does is in an effort to sanctify your passion it will emasculate your calling.

>>JOEL:    Yeah, going to that, please.

>>LANCE:    So what, so what happens is believers have a passion— let’s say it’s in arts, music or they see themselves on the cover of a book or magazine or something like that.  I’ve actually had entrepreneurs in meetings that I’ve done in other countries who had callings to politics, but when they went to their church to talk about it the church told them that since they were a businessman their calling was to make money to support the kingdom and that it was selfish ambition for them to be looking at politics as a career.

And so that’s when I realized that many believers and many—like I pastored for 20 years so I was as sincere as anybody doing these circumcisions and I’m part Jewish so I felt like it was a rabbinic obligation to sanctify the flesh with everybody and I would do that by cutting off ambitions that I didn’t see as advancing the kingdom.  And I realized—wait a second these passions and these callings are advancing the kingdoms in places that, traditionally, the church has never been.

>>JOEL:    So what are some of the blocks that you’ve realized over the years in doing this?  People’s roadblocks to not wanting to pursue their passion, thinking it’s just a…

>>LANCE:    First thing is this: the verse that I would use to perform my circumcision.

>>JOEL:    Yes.

>>LANCE:    Passions was the wrong one or the heart is deceitfully wicked above all things who can know it.  So the first thing I would do is I would have people disconnect from what they were feeling they wanted to do and say well you can’t go by that.  You have to, you know, you have your mind renewed and God will give you new desires which to me were always missions, widows, orphans, evangelism and revival, you know, classic pastoral obligation; you know, the revivalist thinking.

And then I started—then the Lord started dealing with me and saying that is an Old Testament quote to people that didn’t know me.  In the New Testament it’s not that the heart is deceitfully wicked.  And here’s the verse God gave me: whatsoever things you desire when you pray, believe you receive them.  And right away I realized your desire is plugged into His desire when you are a genuine follower of Christ.

>>JOEL:    Now, tell me about that.  Was that just a light switch going off in your mind or was that a gradual process?

>>LANCE:    It—well it was a gradual process that culminated and moments like anything else in life where I realized, wait a second maybe the desire of the heart is an indication of ultimate direction.  What we don’t have, yet, is a total understanding of how it’s going to work itself out which is why it’s more important to identify your passion than to identify the job you’re trying to get.

>>JOEL:    You know, one of the things that I heard you say in one of your DVD programs, At Level 10 Living—I can’t tell you how many times I’ve watched that—you talked about sometimes people are just afraid of pursuing their passions because really they are thinking that well maybe they’re just unsanctified desires.  And that term just, it’s stuck in my head and I’m thinking, my gosh, is that what is keeping people?

>>LANCE:    And think about how ludicrous it is because then the position of Christians says we lament the deterioration of the world so we say oh, the movies, oh the music, oh the TV and oh the politics and what it does is we start getting all (UNINTELLIGIBLE) over the deterioration of culture because we’re not engaged in it.  So why don’t you write the better movie, write the better song, sing the better song, write the better bestseller and since God’s anointed you with gifts and callings to be manifest in places other than Sunday morning or Wednesday night at church, why don’t you let the gifts manifest in Babylon and you could be like Daniel; shape the environment rather than grumble about it.

>>JOEL:    Absolutely.  You know, I would rather sell and be accepting that Oscar award or that Tony award nomination that’s a believer that’s deep into the relationship with Christ.

>>LANCE:    I mean we’re seeing this in athletics, Tebow, right?  And then there’s the Chinese or the guys who’s—what’s his name again?  Lin?

>>JOEL:     Lin.

>>LANCE:    Like, and so, right, the guy’s a Christian.  I mean, you know, some people may not know that but he actually, you know, he was discipled in a Bible study at Harvard where some guys, you know, that I know, ministered to him.  So the Lord has his people and when they do what they’re gifted to do and they’re passioned to do there’s a way to manifest it.

>>JOEL:    Absolutely.  You know, another Scripture in the Bible that I think back to and I’m paraphrasing here, but it says that you know God has given you the desire and the abilities to do what is most pleasing for Him.  And I’m not a Bible teacher; didn’t pastor like you did, Dr. Lance, but to me that means that the passion that has been put in us is sanctified by God and He also gives us the tools that we need.

>>LANCE:    You got it.  And it’s funny you say that because I just was studying that yesterday.  Philippians:  For God is at work in you, both, to will and to do His good pleasure.  Which means that all those believers that are love and worship and soaking and praying—like I run into them all the time—that they really are pursuing God’s presence.  Get this; what comes out of those seasons in His presence is an alignment to will what He wills and to do what He does so your passion is actually an indicator of your ultimate direction.

>>JOEL:    You know, when I read that passage in Philippians, and I’m just a layman over here, but to me that means that what we want to do the most, anyways, is what God put us here for.

>>LANCE:    Absolutely.  And then, you know, this is why I say, oh man, this is such an important subject.  Like the number one inhibitor—when I do a passion process—which is what we call it—when I take a person into an event and I bring them up on a platform and we literally go through a process.  In like 10 minutes we can collapse all of the fragmented desires and yearnings that are the heart into a singular focus—one or two sentences—that crystallizes what the person’s ultimate destiny is.  With the more they can articulate it, the more the room feels it because when you are doing what you were purposed to do, there’s an anointing that comes with it.

The challenge, number one challenge with Christians—I find is not with non-Christians; this is the irony is it—is Christians confuse their values with their passion so that they mingle into their passion things like you know they’ll say like this is a classic one from Orlando I saw:  when a woman said I want to help deliver young women from bondage.  I want to save people and I want to be able to be in the fashion industry.

It was so weird because when she said fashion industry her face lit up and we all felt it.  The other two were values mingled with passions.  When Christians insert their values—because they, we feel obligated to win the loss that people free, love God, you know, serve God—that amped ambiguous value system, it’s not a passion.  It may be, maybe it’s something you love to do and if you’re called to be a worship leader, it may be your passion, but unconsciously, Christians thread these, sense these sanctifying statements into their passion list so they end up with a hodgepodge that doesn’t stimulate them.

>>JOEL:    Okay.  That’s, that’s such an important distinction.  Can you give one more example of a person confusing their values and their passions?

>>LANCE:    Yeah, I’ll give you one right away.

>>JOEL:    Please.

>>LANCE:    A professional woman, here’s a woman who is a key attorney’s wife in Aruba.

>>JOEL:    Okay.

>>LANCE:    Her name is Angelie.  She, herself, is an administrative with a legal background.  And I bring her up for this process.  And this is my big ah-ha, especially with women, that she, that a person—I’ll have them list their top 10 passions.  What is it that gives them the most juice; brings the most to live with what they really have to do and have in your life, in their life?

She had all these things listed up there, some were her Christian values like, you know, ministering to the laws or, you know, helping young women, which are by the way all good things.

>> JOEL:    Oh, yeah.

>>LANCE:    But was she had as number seven was delivering women out of the bondage of unjust slavery and oppression and the sex slave trade and stuff like that which is kind of a hot subject now.  And when she said it she had tears in her eyes.  And I realized, I said why did you put number seven where that’s the real passion instead of putting it at the top?

And then I realized most of the women I work with are so afraid that what they really want will never happen that they bury it in the passion list so I now go to the bottom half with a great deal of curiosity to see what women write.  Because what they write for the bottom half, meaning like 5 through 10, is typically going to have one of them that in their heart is so important they’re afraid to articulate it because if they articulate it and don’t have it will break their heart.

>>JOEL:    Yes, you know, you’re absolutely right.  I think that they let their guard down once they list what they think they’re supposed to list.

>>LANCE:    Right.

>>JOEL:    For number one, number two, number three and they let their guard down and they are maybe feel a little bit more free to be themselves and at the bottom of the list, as you’re pointing out, that then they’re writing some things that are really meaningful.

>>LANCE:    That’s what, man, that’s why to me—like for instance, you’ve got a book you were just telling me about which I think is really important.  I think people, I think people need to really go back and revisit this subject because passion is something which evolves as you go through process events.

>>JOEL:    Yes.

>>LANCE:    Process events is the language we use to describe the journey that we experience in life where pain or challenges or chapters of overcoming are actually working to define and refine the next phase of our calling.

>>JOEL:    Yes.

>>LANCE:    So we need to periodically go back and revisit what we thought was our passion and our assignment in light of a present update.  And you’ve got some steps in your book you were telling me about that I think people need to read.  Like what would they be?  Like right now, anything come to mind in terms of our conversation?

>>JOEL:    Yeah, absolutely.  Thanks for asking, too.  You know, a lot of times people’s passions aren’t necessarily things that they chase or that they run after.  A lot of times people’s passions are chasing them and I’ll give you a perfect example of.

I had a singer on my show and he sings for, let’s see, Capital Records; lives in Nashville.  And, of course, he went to college; went the traditional route; got married; put on a suit; went to the office; punched a time clock.  But he, he was miserable.  His dad—he worked for his death—his dad saw that he was just incomplete.

So his dad said, Walker, you’ve got to do something else.  And in the course of his life he realized that no matter where he went he ended up—he always found the music; his love for music.  He always found the music and I pushed him on that.  I said Walker did you find the music or did the music find you?  And he said Joel, the music sounds me.

And his quote was I couldn’t outrun the music.  It was chasing him.  He just had to slow down enough to let it capture him and now he’s in Nashville.  He just had a big performance just the other day at one of the, one of the hotspots in Nashville.  And he is on fire pursuing his passion.  Go ahead.

>>LANCE:    Yeah, you just remind me of—I remember years ago a woman who started me off in this journey was named Mary Crumb and she had a question that anyone could ask that would help them qualify what their calling and gifting and passion and purpose would be.  And here was the question: what do people come to you for most?

>>JOEL:    Right.

>>LANCE:    So, and then I said, well, wait a second.  She said they either come to you for something you do or something you say.  Something you communicate; some feedback you give.

And I said, wait a second, now that goes right to what the Bible says about where Peter talks about gifts and they categorized them in two groups: if any man speak, let him speak as an oracle of God; if any man serve, let him serve with the ability that God giveth.  In other words, whatever your technical competency is from surgery to like your wife as, you know, a master like dentist, and you with your blog and stuff that you’re doing—whatever your competency is is how you serve or whatever you say, like I’m more of a oracle gift, so I communicate ideas that can be written, videotaped, coached or whatever, but what people come to you for is chasing you and telling you.

So sometimes we’re in pursuit what God wants us to do, we’re not even realizing what are people coming to us?  What are—what’s chasing us in the form of incense and interaction that we’ve never decoded as a key to our own purpose?

>>JOEL:    Absolutely.  You know, I sometimes point out to people that they see something in you.  You may not even see it because it’s just you, but that’s the point.  It is just you; people are seeing that.  Their discerning that in your spirit and they’re being drawn to you.  They see something that you can offer.

>>LANCE:    And this is for men and women.

>> JOEL:    Yes.

>>LANCE:    I mean this is— I’m telling you, this is—all this stuff is just as relevant.  That, you know, and the number one reason why people, Christians, are confused over hearing God’s voice is the same reason: because God’s speaking to your spirits.  Romans says: His spirit bears witness with my spirit.  So God’s not talking to your head.  If He did, it would be an external audio channel like we’re talking on a podcast and you’d hear a voice in your ear; very seldom, may never happen.

For you to be led by the Spirit, He speaks to your spirit.  And here’s the point your spirit sounds like you because it is you so your voice in your spirit is communicating what the Father is saying.  So, if your voice has a certain sound it’s going to be the way Father is speaking through you, to you.  Your spirit, literally, is the channel that, in which the spirit of God is communicating.  So we don’t hear a separate voice; we hear His voice in a very familiar part of us.

The key is separating soul from spirit; separating our emotional needs and drivers from our more sanctified assignments.  So there is this reality that the same passion that may make me want to be an Academy award actor can also be a lust that needs to be sanctified for fame or glory or recognition.  And that goes through the whole subject of emotional drivers we’ll get into in another, you know, time we talk.

>>JOEL:    Sure.

>>LANCE:    But, but there is a sanctifying that comes to passion.  The problem is we kill passion in the pursuit of sanctifying it rather than affirming what’s real by purifying or refining it.  What we need to do is refine passion, not kill it.

>>JOEL:     Okay, yeah, unpack that a little bit more, Dr. Lance, if you would please.  That’s such an important…

>>LANCE:     Yes, it is because all human beings have needs.

>>JOEL:     Yes.

>>LANCE:     And so if you, you know, and these are the emotional drivers of life.  If you’re highly—if you’re gifted in the area of being driven by a desire for significance, God made you to be significant.

>>JOEL:     Yes.

>>LANCE:     And so like when a little child comes up to you with a drawing, you know, like one friend of mine said he may have Picasso, he may have Rembrandts, he may have, he may have priceless artwork in a gallery, but the one picture he’s got on his refrigerator for everyone to see is his kid’s or his grandkid’s crayon drawing of grandpa or daddy and mommy because it means more to him than the Rembrandts because it’s coming out of his own family; his own loins.

So there’s a sense in which we have to appreciate that our driver for significance is a beautiful thing, but then we have to subordinate that to a higher calling.

So for instance I dated, once, the casting director for Saturday Night Live.  I wanted to be in theater.  I wanted to be in comedy and some of my stuff is hysterical.  But the reality is it was not the direction God wanted my gift in.  And it was crushing me to say no to opportunity in theater because I felt the Lord said this isn’t for you right now.  This isn’t what I want you to do, but I was called to be a voice.

I couldn’t have the voice I’ve got now had I pursued that significance itch through the wrong channel, earlier.  So, in a sense what God does is He sanctifies the ways in which we execute our passion.  What would be terrible would be for me to say I shouldn’t have a yearning to be heard or seen because that’s not Christian because the moment I do that I annihilate the call of God in an effort to be sanctified.

>>JOEL:    One of the very first questions that I ask people when we just get started in the coaching process is as you grow in age, wisdom and maturity, do you become more of who you are—grow more to your own skin and gifts—or do you become this other person at age 30, 40, 50?  And that makes for some interesting coaching conversations.

And really what people finally admit out loud is gosh, we, we generally grow more into our own skin.  We become more of the person who God created us to be.  And that is empowering because people then turn the corner and they start to realize, well, wait a minute if that is true, then everything I need is right here.

And often times I give them this piece of advice and it’s very powerful.  I say if you really want the coaching process to work for you, do two things: surrender to who you are and surrender to who you are not.  And, collectively, I hear people exhale every time because then they realize like ah, you mean I don’t have to fight with this person I’ve been told that I should be.  And sometimes it’s by well-meaning people.

>>LANCE:     Absolutely and you know what’s coming to my mind is a picture like a pyramid; the closer you get to the top the smaller and smaller the radius, but the more concentrated it is to the point where it can penetrate something.

So what happens in life, as you mature God brings greater and greater definition by elimination.  So what happens is certain things, certain people, certain seasons of life have to be cut off, moved on from, separated from, so that you’re narrowing your focus on what you do best.  Your narrowing your focus on who you are, but it’s in that narrow path that you find the greatest power for expression.

So the, you know, so John the Baptist, by the time he was ready to speak it was the voice of one crying.  As it’s been preached a lot, but it’s true, when you don’t have your voice, you become the echo of what other people tell you you’re supposed to be.  And whenever you’re an echo, you are less authentic than who you are.  And so, when you are who you really are and you hit that point when you’re content to be who you really are and to do what you really good at and acknowledge—so they came to him and they said are you the prophet or are you the Christ?  And he said no.

What’s funny is he said no, I’m not.  He actually was the prophet, but he really didn’t care about fulfilling other people’s definitions of destiny.  He was committed to articulating what the Father was telling him to say.  And being the voice he dominated every other voice.  And it’ll happen for believers, too.  When you become the voice God gave you, you will dominate the arena that you’re in.

>>JOEL:    Wow, I’m going to have to listen to our conversation a few times and then review my notes, Dr. Lance, because a wealth of information.  And what’s the next thing that people can do?  What’s the next step so people can take this information and take action on it, immediately?  What do you think?

>>LANCE:    I’ve been, I’ve been thinking about that while we’ve been talking and more and more my mind goes t—our staff meets with me and they frequently tell me what people are asking for and what they’re responding to that I’m doing in training.  And I’m often amazed that it’s not something which I was aware of so here’s what I’m going to do.

I’ve got my next gen consulting coach, Lance Learning Group has two generations.  I’ve got my generation and then I have the 18 to 30-year-old generation because I really believe part of our legacy as moms and dads in the kingdom is to transfer to the next generation a better game than we have; let’s get these lessons down and hand them off so they can do them better than us.

So, for our children, for those people that are listening that have sons and daughters, I want you to hear his voice.  Jonathan Wales from the UK, Southampton, he’s working with me as someone who I’m training for the next generation, but they’re actually brilliant; and they, you know, the next Gen gets it.

So he’s got all the materials and I’m going to ask him to look at our—right now give you guys some feedback as to what he thinks would be the best product that we can make a massive discount on so that folks that are interested in this broadcast can take action.  Jonathan, come on over.

>>JOEL:     Okay.

>>JONATHAN:    Wow, what a powerful discussion.

>>JOEL:     Oh, my goodness, you know, Dr. Lance, I’ll be honest with you, I was not prepared for what was being covered today.  So thank you, Dr. Lance, for coming over; and, Jonathan, thanks for coming over with him.

>>JONATHAN:    Yeah, you’re welcome.  Yeah, I have to say, Lance…

>>JOEL:    A little bit closer.

>>JONATHAN: I think, probably the most valuable take away I’ve had from working with you and being a part of your staff has been how you’ve helped me crystallize, get real crystal clear out my passion.  So now, no matter what job I go into after this or whatever I do with my life I am so set on my passions that I can move and focus towards them.

>>JOEL:     Fantastic.  Well, what can we do for the people that are tuning in to make Dr. Lance’s material available?

>>JONATHAN:    Okay, well, the most powerful thing in our life training events that I’ve seen has been, like Lance said earlier in the podcast, he brings people up on stage and he does this miracle makeover, and it’s incredible seeing the — almost seeing their minds being unlocked and freed to understand what their true passion is.

And so what we’ve actually made available is a recording of one of those $2500 training events, but we’ve created—and I work a lot with the next generation and so it’s something that I often hear people in the event say is I wish I’d learned this 20 years ago.  So that’s why we made it available to the next gen.

But, today, we’re going to do just for this group of listeners is we’re going to put together a recording of this—it’s a 20 minute recording of Lance taking somebody through this passion process.

>> JOEL:    Okay.

>> JONATHAN:    And he literally helps a 23-year-old girl get clear on what her passions are.  And we’ve combined it with a PDF of some reading material you can go through; and actually, Joel, I want you to share a little bit about there’s a new e-book I believe you’ve just come out with?

>>JOEL:    Yes, and thank you for asking me about that.  It’s a powerful e-book: Passion:  Four Places You Forgot to Look.  And it gives people four points of how they can really get in touch with their passion.  And it combines some of what I’ve learned and what I’ve discovered from some of the clients that I’ve worked with.  And actually gives their examples so there’s audio podcasts that are involved, also, in the e-book.  And it’s a very, very powerful tool to help people look at passion and look at their passion in a completely different way.  So I’m really excited about that.  Passion:  Four Places You Forgot to Look.

>>JONATHAN:    Okay, well what we’re going to do today, then, is we’ve got this 20 minute video module of Lance doing some training, we’ve got a PDF, we’ve got your e-book which includes podcasts as well.  So we’re going to put all of that together for one product just for this group of listeners today.  And so, I believe we can go to it’s fourpointscoaching.com/Lance…

>>JOEL:    Fourpointscoaching.com/Lance, absolutely.

>>JONATHAN:    Okay, and for just $24.95, for just for this group of listeners were going to make this available.  So don’t miss out on that irresistible offer.  You’re probably a your computer right now so go to the website right now and grab it.

>>JOEL:    Fourpointscoaching.com/Lance, a great product.  Dr. Lance, thank you so much for coming over.

(  music playing  )

Jonathan, it was a pleasure to meet you.  And I don’t know about you, but I am learning a ton from Dr. Lance.  We are so excited that he was able to stop by the studio.

Coming up next week, part two of our conversation.

( end of music  )

Breaking Through, Part 2

with Joel Boggess

“Breaking Through” with Lance Wallnau
Part 2

Podcast #107 on March 19, 2012

Link to podcast

Transcript provided by:
Speech Text Access LLC

(  music playing  )

>>    I have a voice.

>>    I have a voice.

>>    I have a voice.

>>    And no one can find it but me.

>>    Knowing my voice is understanding who I really am.

>>    What excites me and what I stand for.

>>    I owe it to myself.  I owe it to my family.

>>    I owe it to God.  When you find your voice, you find a way back.

>>    You find a way back.

>>    You find a way back to yourself.

(  end of music playing  )

>>JOEL:    Hi, it’s me, Joel; and welcome back to Finding Your Voice.  Today is part two of the conversation with Dr. Lance Wallnau.

Dr. Lance is expanding on the power that’s available when one makes a decision to step into the person that God has created them to be.  Now, back to the show.

Can you think of one other example, Dr. Lance, when a person was able to connect with some of the stories that you’re talking about — some of the analogies that you’re drawing, like the one of the pyramid for instance, when someone’s light went off.  I’ve seen, gosh, several — some of your programs.

>>LANCE:   Its prolific.  I mean, you know, quite frankly, I sometimes have been frustrated because I say, what am I actually doing when I’m doing all this coaching, consulting, speaking, dehdah, dehdah, dehdah.  What’s the unifying thing?  Here it is.

Remember when Joshua — when there was — Israel had these rods of these elders that they all had to decide which one was the rod that God had anointed.  It was they took their rods, they put them in the presence of God.  These are the staffs of all the tribes.  They put them in the presence of God overnight, and one rod had supernatural fruit in the morning; it was the rod of Aaron.  It budded, which is amazing.  You got a dead stick producing fresh life.  What the Lord was saying to me in that is that when you take who you are into his presence and you walk in that alignment with your heavenly  identity, that God begins to produce supernatural fruit on the vine.  Meaning that your life begins to produce supernatural fruit.

For me, who people are, what they’re called to do starts to bud.  When I get to do my Rabbi thing and whether I’m teaching, coaching, consulting or something, when I’m in that revelation zone, they’re calling their assignment and their destiny and the steps to get the next level start to supernaturally bud.  If that isn’t happening when I’m with someone, it’s an indication that I’m not assigned to them or they’re not assigned to me.

What I realize is a unifying factor for my clients is that there’s no one method I’m doing.  It’s just by having a dialogue, like you and I are having now.  Dialogue is God in the conversation.  When God comes down and joins the conversation, he can’t talk without creating.  If I’m with the right people, there’s supernatural clarity.  There’s supernatural direction.  I’m amused, almost, at the number of entrepreneurs and people that launched a business that say they got it from me, and I don’t remember what it was I said they’re talking about.  They heard what God wanted them to hear and it might have even been without saying.


>>JOEL:   One of your programs, you talked about how God’s voice joins the flow of a person’s conversation: their internal dialogues.

>>LANCE:   Right.

>>JOEL:    Could you unpack that a little bit.  I think that’s so important.

>>LANCE:   Yeah, Minnesota University says that we think at the average rate of, like, 1200 words per minute.

>>JOEL:    Okay.

>>LANCE:   I’ll have to check some other university updates on that; but what that means is that we’re thinking a lot faster than we’re talking.  I always say — I joke — I say if by reason of Starbucks, it could be 1500 words a minute.  So you could tell people have a lot of traffic going on in their head.

How do you know what God is saying?  Because God in the dialogue, when you meditate upon the word, when you spend time in its presence, when you’re in the company of anointed teaching, which is what you do, which is what I do, the anointing, John says, teaches us all things, which means that the anointing that is on you or that is on we will quicken in sight in revelation to the spirit that is in someone else.

So for me, the real secret thing is to be always in proximity.  Proximity is power.  Be in proximity to the people and the resources that are quickening your spirit, and learn to trust the quickening.  Learn to trust the fact that if God’s in something, that you may not know exactly where you’re going; but the steps of the good man are ordered by the Lord, which means the stuff clarifies under your feet or in front of your path as you walk.  That’s the life of faith.

>>JOEL:    Yes.

>>LANCE:   I think believers have to embrace that.  What specifically was the question you were looking for right there?  I’m thinking, and I just went off on a tangent.

>>JOEL:    Sure.  You actually clarified it.  I just — I love the illustration of God joins the flow of conversation was the example.

>>LANCE:   The point is that when God joins the flow of conversation by meditating and moving in the dialogos or the– in the — think of it as a frequency.  It’s not too new age.  You adjust your frequency to the channel, the FM station. You go from AM, which may be all about you, to FM.  You move it up a little bit and what happens is God’s talking.

The problem isn’t — we are often trying to, you know, get God to talk.  Often, the Lord is speaking; and we’re not able to discern what he is saying.

>>JOEL:    Right.

>>LANCE:   When we move into that zone — that’s why I think peace is such an important power because peace is the context into which you can discern most readily the voice of God.  So God is joining the conversation in your head.

>>JOEL:    Right.

>>LANCE:   When you’re having a dialogue with his word.  So the thoughts are coming into your head spontaneously.

Remember when we said Philippians, God is working you to do and will his good pleasure?  Well, he said work, therefore, in your think.  He’s drifting thoughts into your head, which is why desire is so powerful.  The desire that you desire is actually his desire surfacing in you.

>>JOEL:    Right.

>>LANCE:   Those things that you actually are hoping or wanting or desiring to do are God’s way of telegraphing to you what he wants you to pray for in the next season that he wants to set up and manifest.

>>JOEL:    You’re absolutely right.  I can think of several people that I’ve worked with that once they sat down and started writing out their thoughts, a floodgate opened; and they just poured everything.  They didn’t hold anything back.  It was amazing.  It was freeing, and it was empowering because they let themselves flow in that anointing.

>>LANCE:   You know, that’s the deal.  (UNINTELLIGIBLE) you would ask gets in the way and how do believers actually, properly judge the flash, sanctify ambition.  Because selfish ambition, we’re warned against.

If I talk to an entrepreneur and they’re, like, and this happens to me, and it drives me nuts, if they haven’t dealt with the loss to for wealth, the desire for the acquisition of more, covetousness, competition, selfish ambition; then if they’re called to the marketplace, they take material like what we’re saying and they go, yeah, and they don’t even bother to realize the red flags that are going up.  Because when we have a desire for something, the secret is to connect the two the greater mission and purpose of the kingdom.  So that If I have a gift for the acquisition of wealth, what I really need to do is I need to sanctify the desire so that it is — I’m dialoguing with God about it in terms of the purpose for it.  If I have the wealth of influence, the wealth of gifting, the wealth of access — I talked to Ken Blanchard, you know, he’s got 20 million books sold.  He’s a best seller: ten different books; and he’s one of the few guys I actually heard who said the goodness of the Lord led him to repentance.  Most of us come to the kingdom because of guilt, conviction, or crises.

I finally met someone who got blessed so much he had to submit.  Ken said he was walking down the beach one day and a Christian, friend of his, said, did you ever think, Ken, all this stuff isn’t you?  You’re okay and you’re smart, but this is way out of your league.  He just wrote The One Minute Manager, and the thing is exploding.

He said at that moment on the beach he realized — he’s always had a, kind of, sense of God — he said I could not have done this.  This has got to be the hand of Almighty God blessing me.  At that moment, he was open to receiving the gospel and receiving Christ.  Here’s the thing he told me.  He said, you know, since I’ve become a Christian later in life, I noticed you guys — he still referred to us as a separate culture at that time — you guys in ministry, you’re constantly focusing on a Calvinistic worldview on sin, meaning that you’re so keen on sin, even man, it’s all about original sin and the wickedness of the heart and the depravity and sin.  He said I wonder why you guys don’t focus on the original potential?  He said because before Adam fell, he was made in the image of God.  Why don’t you put your emphasis on not the fall but on the potential that was lost so when people come to Christ they can see more of the goodness of God.  That blew my mind.

Now, what we’re doing is we’re saying the church has to have a pendulum that says many of the believers struggling over passion are actually struggling with a focus on the sin side rather than on the potential of what that passion is meant to manifest.  If they love God with all their heart, they’ll sanctify the gift.  It’s better to do it by loving God than by becoming a Pharisee and trying to judge it.

>>JOEL:    Delight yourself in the Lord.

>>JOEL AND LANCE:   He’ll give you the hearts desire for it.

>>LANCE:   Exactly.

>>JOEL:    Absolutely.

Dr. Lance, one of the things I wanted to also ask you about is emotional drivers.  You had started — you had touched on emotional drivers and talked about the drive for significance. What are some of the other emotional drivers?

>>LANCE:   What got me into this thing was when — everybody has probably done some form of temper meant temperament analysis because there’s so many out.  They have the Myers, (UNINTELLIBIBLE) different ones.  Strength finders out there, big now.  It has to do with these tools people use to identify their personality profile, so to speak.

>>JOEL:   Okay.

>>LANCE:   There are four dominant characteristics that come out — they’re called four factor.  All psychologists keep coming up with it.  I asked the Lord, I said, what are these?  The Lord took me in an interesting way and took me to the veil that covers the holy of holies, which in Hebrews it says the veil corresponds to his flesh, meeting Jesus.  Remember, when he cried out, it is finished, the veil was torn in the temple because the veil corresponded to him.  When he gave his life, the curtain, the veil was torn and access to the glory of God and the Holy Spirit was released.  On the veil was embroidered “cherubim.”  I thought, why cherubim?  Because the cherubim are these creatures — these unique creatures in heaven — that have four faces: the face of a lion, the face of a man, the face of an ox, and the face of an eagle.

Then it clicked.  These four factor psychological studies that keep coming up with four dominant personality drivers, four dominant emotional drivers, is picking up on a design that God had; not something a psychologist figured out.  Psychologists have figured out what God designed.  Those four faces reveal the four faces of Jesus, which is interesting.  It’s Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.  There’s four testimonies.

The face of the lion is the dominant personality that is driven to achieve, driven to accomplish.

>>JOEL:    Right.

>>LANCE:   We’ve got them out there.  Whatever your passion is, if you’re a lion, you’re inpatient, direct, forceful, dynamic, you move towards a confrontation, you’re not afraid of taking chances or risks and that’s a lion.  That’s the image of God.  Your passion is connected to your temperament.

>>JOEL:    Okay.

>>LANCE:   If you’re the significance, like little girl with the picture I’d mentioned earlier on the refrigerator?

>>JOEL:    Right.

>>LANCE:   If you’ve got a significant need, that’s the face of the man.  Because the face of the man is the communicator, influencer, the charismatic part of the Godhead.  This is the multitudes that follows Jesus.  The favor that made him a favorite with the populace.  If that’s you, then you love change, you love uncertainty, you love significance, you love excitement, you love communicating, you love — you’re driven by ideas and shaping the environment.

To an extent, significance, uncertainty, or recognition is factors that can be on those liens and on those faces of men.

The face of the oxen is connection.  The oxen is the only one of those four faces that is a vegetarian, frankly.  All of the others — you know, the face of the lion, man, and eagle all eat meat.  The oxen is the connection person.  That’s a person who’s driven by stability, connection, relationship, loyalty.  These are people that are not as prone to change and erratic behavior.  These are the Abrahams in the Bible who are accommodating the (UNINTELLIGIBLE), who are like lions, who are trying to make peace with their enemies by not fighting, unless you touch their family, which is interesting.

Abraham had 300 household servants who became terrorists when the nephew, Lot, was taken.  So when this connection need person, who is normally a pacifist and just a peace lover, touched their family — and they’ve got all claws, which is fascinating.

Then you’ve got the face of the eagle.  The eagle is driven by certainty.  It’s a need for accuracy, to do things right, to do it correctly, to do perfectly.  These are people that are typically driven by analytical needs, which make them very meticulous in the execution of whatever they do.

You take significance, certainty, connection, uncertainty, take these drivers and you realize that temperament and passion are closely related.  The world has it before they become a Christian, the Christian has it before they become a Christian.

What separates the two, and this is important, is the Holy Spirit sanctifies the passion for a higher purpose.  Which means that you may be able to have this ability to make wealth, but God will capture your heart for a cause behind the wealth.

>>JOEL:    Right.

>>LANCE:   So I like working with people I can bring into the kingdom that have wealth and lead them to Jesus so they can discover what the wealth is for; or I like working with believers that already have the gift for wealth, who are seeking what is God saying because then they can find a purpose for it.

But wealth isn’t just money: the wealth of influence, the wealth of personality, the wealth of talent, the wealth of access.  The two things that sanctify your passion in those temperaments is growth and contribution.  That’s critical.  Your willingness to grow more in the image of Christ will sanctify your passion.  Their willingness to contribute, which means how can I leverage this passion and gift that I’ve got to a greater good so that when I die, and I stand before Jesus, I will not have built something which has no eternal meaning.

If you can take growth and contribution and make them real, meaning I’m going to grow more and more every day in the image of Christ, grow more and more fruitful every day, I’m going to grow what God called me to do more every day for his purpose; and then focus on how can I make this a massive contribution to the earth, to make the world better.  Then that sanctifies the passion without you having to get religious.

>>JOEL:    Wow! Four emotional drivers significance, recognition, certainty, and then uncertainty and what you said one time in a video was the need for variety is one way to look at that.

>>LANCE:   Right.  And uncertainty is variety because when you think about it, the need for variety means I don’t want something I’ve already seen or done and that’s the uncertainty itch.

>>JOEL:    Okay.

>>LANCE:   And then that other one — the other part that’s in their — because I said four; but if you really want to break it down and not be technical, that connection thing, that oxen?

>>JOEL:    Right.

>>LANCE:   Is massive.  I mean, 60% of your audience out there relates to this.  A lot of women have high connection needs that are frustrated because they marry into their life, typically, someone who’s not like them.  They marry the lion who’s all about doing and not about being because you attract yourself something that helps you feel more complete; so you draw into the vacuum of your life a person who’s not like you.  You got a lot of women who have high connection needs who are frequently married to people who don’t get it.  They don’t understand what their wife wants.

>>JOEL:    A wealth of information.

You may have heard this on the first show.  Dr. Lance has made this wonderful offer available only to Four Points Coaching listeners.  Here’s Jonathan and I talking about everything that’s included in our special offer.

>>JONATHAN:   The most powerful thing in our life training events that I’ve seen has been, like Lance said earlier in the podcast, he brings people up on stage and he does this miracle makeover, and it’s incredible seeing the — almost seeing their minds being unlocked and freed to understand what their true passion is.

What we’ve actually made available is a recording of one of those $2500 training events.  We’ve created — and I work a lot with the next generation and so it’s something that I often hear people in event say is I wish I’d learned this 20 years ago.  That’s why we’ve made it available to the next generation.

Today what were going to do, just for this group of listeners, is we’re going to put together a recording of this — it’s a 20 minute recording of Lance taking somebody through this passion process.

>>JOEL:    Okay.

>>JONATHAN:   He literally helps a 23-year-old girl get clear on what her passions are.  We’ve combined it with a PDF of some reading material you can go through; and actually,, Joel, I wanted to share a little bit about there’s a new e-book you’ve just come out with?

>>JOEL:    Yes.  Thank you for asking me about that.  It’s a powerful e-book.  Passion: Four Places You Forgot to Look.  It gives people four points of how they can really get in touch with their passion.  It combines some of what I’ve learned and what I’ve discovered from some of the clients I’ve worked with.  It actually gives their examples.  There’s audio podcasts that are involved also in the e-book, and it’s a very powerful tool to help people look at passion and look at their passion in a completely different way.  I’m real excited about that.  Passion: Four Places You Forgot to Look.

>>JONATHAN:   Okay.  Well, what we’re going to do today then is we’ve got this 20 minute video module of Lance doing some training, we’ve got a PDF, we’ve got your e-book which includes podcasts as well.

>>JOEL:    Right.

>>JONATHAN:   We’re going to put all of that together for one product just for this group of listeners today.  I believe we can go to fourpointscoaching.com/lance; is that correct?

>>JOEL:    Fourpointscoaching.com/lance.  Absolutely.

>>JONATHAN:    And for just $24.95, for just this group of listeners, we’re going to make this available.

(  music playing  )

Don’t miss out on that irresistible offer.  You’re probably at your computer right now, so go to the website right now and grab it.

>>JOEL:    Fourpointscoaching.com/lance.  A great product.

Dr. Lance, thank you so much for coming over.  Jonathan, it was a pleasure to meet you; and I look forward to having you on the show again.

>>JONATHAN:   Absolutely.  Think you, Joel.

>>JOEL:    All the best, God bless.

( end of music  )

Finding Your Fire

with Joel Boggess

“Finding Your Fire” with Kathy Brunner

Podcast #112, April 7, 2012

Link to podcast

Transcript provided by:
Speech Text Access LLC

>> (MUSIC):  I have a voice.  I have a voice.  I have a voice.  And no one can find it, but me.  Knowing my voice is understanding who I really am.  What excites me.  And what I stand for.  I owe it to myself.  I owe it to my family.  I owe it to God.  When you find your voice, you find a way back.  You find a way back.  You find a way back to yourself. (MUSIC ENDS)

>>  JOEL:  Hi.  It’s me Joel and you’re listening to “Finding Your Voice.”  And joining us on the show today is Kathy Brunner from Georgia.  Kathy, thank you for coming on.
>>  KATHY:  You’re very welcome.
>>  JOEL:  Now you’ve been working on a book and you are in the final stages of this book and wow, what a title, “Finding Your Fire.” I could picture that almost.  And the book is about finding out what motivates and excites you so that you can then harness what you learn about yourself and use it to give you direction.  And I’m looking forward to hearing about the book but before we get into that Kathy, tell me, out of all of the topics that are available these days for you to write about, why did you choose this one, finding your fire?
>>  KATHY:  I think I always knew that I hadn’t found my fire.  Only because my children would tell me often, mom, you don’t really know what you want to be when you grow up.  And while I had different half-sight — was a real estate agent for a while.  I owned my own business that was a speech language pathologist and owned my own business for over 20 years.  I just somehow felt that I hadn’t really located what motivated me beyond anything else.  You just aspire to it.
And as I begin to write, I realized writing was something that I could do anytime of the day or night and sometimes the entire day would pass and I wouldn’t even realize what time it was because when I got involved in it, you know, it just kind of had a self-propelling motion.  And I begin to talk to people who weren’t very contented with either their jobs or even just their vocation, their lifestyle.
And I realized that a lot of people have maybe a hidden gift or a skill that they don’t even realize they have that, you know, can really be the ball of wax, so to speak. That really just gets them so motivated about life that you need to figure out what it is before you’re going to get to that point where you know what you truly do either for a career or just in your lifestyle really becomes your fire.  Really becomes the thing that gets up in the morning.
>>  JOEL:  Indeed.  Indeed.  Tell me about some of those, those triggers that went off in you as you were walking through different phases in your life.  You said you were in real estate, you were a speech pathologist, you did some other things in your life and for whatever reason, they weren’t where you needed to stay.  What were some of those triggers that, that kind of moved you beyond, beyond where you were?
>>  KATHY:  Well, I think it’s sometimes typically that reaction you have whether you’re in business for yourself or working for someone else were all of a sudden it’s Sunday night and you start to think I’m not real anxious about going back to what I’m doing on Monday morning.  That was definitely a trigger.
I think the other one was when you stay in a profession for so long, you may constantly be learning but if it no longer is adding a spark to your life — and I think you feel a little bit like a hamster in a wheel and so you’re just doing more of the same.  You could only do an excellent job but it’s not doing anything for you anymore. So I think that might have been the other one.
And then I think it just was somehow in my heart and soul I believe that there was a different purpose for my life and that I just had to really listen intently and try to determine what it was.  I always liked to write.  I never thought of it as the vehicle that would become something that would motivate me even to be a career until I actually started.  And then I truly understood what people meant when they said, you know, what would you do if you didn’t even get paid for it?  What would you love to do?  And hands down I knew right away that that was my fire.
>>  JOEL:  That is awesome.  What a wonderful story.  Thanks for sharing that.  Would you, would you help us with a few of the points out of your book to help people find their fire because I, like you, I see that as such a need for people.  They want to do something that quickens their pulse, that takes their breath away, that is part of their fire.  But, you know, a lot of people don’t know where to look and they don’t know the right triggers to look for.  So what are some of the points in your book that people can use today for getting in touch with their fire?
>>  KATHY:  I do have some checklists, some personal questions, some really in-depth, take-a-while-and-answer-them type questions.
>>  JOEL:  Sure.
>>  KATHY:  But just a couple of points and what I just mentioned about — I tell people all the time everybody probably has something that they would enjoy doing and they would do regardless of whether it was a career and they got paid for it.
>>  JOEL:  Right.
>>  KATHY:  So that’s, that’s obviously a big one.  Because I think that when you find something that really moves you, that can certainly develop into a, you know, a fire, into a location, into a career, whatever.  It doesn’t necessarily mean that if you’re the kind of person that says well, you know, what motivates me is sitting on the beach all day.  You can maybe build a fire on that.  That doesn’t mean that just because you enjoy doing that’s going to be the actual fire you have.  But that tells you a little bit about your style and the kind of things you enjoy and how you might be able to create a career or, you know, some type of a vocation around that.
Another thing that I encourage people to do is to look and see what kinds of compliments they get from other people about what they are good at.  I have a friend who is always told that she can whip up a party in an instant, that she’s a fantastic hostess.  That at the drop of the hat, she can pull it all together.
And about two years ago, she went into event planning.  She never even thought how is something that she would like but she realized that she really did have a knack for that kind of thing.  And, you know, as she kind of looked to see where other people were often complementing her, that’s where it was at.
So I, you know, encourage them besides looking at what you think you’re good at or what you’re gifted for, what do people compliment you on?  What do they say you’re good at?  What do they tell you, you know, gee, you really have a knack for that?  So that’s another one.
>>  JOEL:  I think that’s a very great idea to look to other people because often times people are the best judges — judge is probably not the right word, but they are the best.  They can give off – give you back the best clues as to what are some of your best gifts and your enduring features.
>>  KATHY:  I think that’s very true.  I think often when we hear people complement us, we don’t maybe realize how difficult or how unusual it would be for another person to be able to do that skill.
>>  JOEL:  Right.
>>  KATHY:  And if it’s second nature to us, we might not even observe those compliments.  But when you really start to think about what have people told me I have done well over the years, usually everyone can find some things that people point out, hey, you’re really good at this.  Even if it sometimes them saying, you know, you’re just really good at putting everybody at ease or, you know, you have a way with words and you can do this or, you know, you’re the person who just seems to be such a great organizer.  I think knowing that can also be part of that skill group that you look at when you’re looking to figure out okay, what really does get me very motivated?
The other thing that I suggest is that people look to see who inspires them.  You know if you look at people and you say wow, I’d like to be able to do that or I’m so inspired by what they do or how they use their life for a purpose.  Often that type of inspiration can be a good foundation for you to kind of look at where you want to go with your life.
And frequently I think you can build on that by just taking apart pieces of what other people do and saying, you know, well what do I really like about this?  What inspires me?  Is it because they’re generous or because they’re confident?   Am I inspired because, you know, they seem to be the kind of person who is capable of functioning regardless of what their situation is?
So when you really look at people who inspire you and you kind of put down the qualities that inspire you, that often too will lead you to determining how you want to build your fire with this quality.
>>  JOEL:  I think you’re right.  You know, when I am taking people through the disc career assessment which is a tool that I use for all of my coaching clients, one of the powerful pieces of that report – it’s a 30 – 32 page report — is the historical character matches where it pulls out some of historical characters like Martin — Martin Luther King, Beethoven, Helen Keller, Abraham Lincoln — pulls out some historical characters that match your particular style or whomever has taken that assessment.  And that’s a very powerful piece because we can then look at, well gosh, what about that person’s work is what really motivates or inspires you?
>>  KATHY:  And I think when you know that, then you have a little bit better understanding about why some things that you might be excellent at don’t motivate you.  And why other things that you just might have a small skill for really do motivate you.
>> JOEL:  Right.
>>  KATHY:  Because when you look at how your personality ties into it, it’s easy to see why you may be actually better in a profession that you might not even have been trained for.
>> JOEL:  Absolutely.  What’s another point?  Sounds like it’s going to be a fascinating book.  Please tell us more.
>>  KATHY:  One of the things I guess I look at a lot when I was writing this book is –
>>  JOEL:  Sure.
>>  KATHY:  — that people —  it’s not just a matter of in today’s economy — I think people do have to have an ability to multitask and to wear many hats.  But I think that especially for women they reach a stage where it’s difficult for them to see their career outside of a nurturing role.  And, I think, what happens to a lot of people and at least a lot of people that I have talked with is, they get to a point where they are happy with what they have done with their job but they no longer feel challenged by it or else they just feel like it’s a means to an end.
And so one of the points that I try to have people work to in the book is to determine whether or not what you really do is a means to an end or is simply a vehicle where you’re stalling.  And a lot of people I think stall because they’re afraid to get beyond where they are and try some new things.  And again, I think that’s particularly an issue for women where they might just feel it’s just better for me to stay where I’m at then to jump off the deep end and go into something terribly new and try my hands at that.
>>  JOEL:  And how to help people through that, Kathy?  Because you are, you are absolutely right.  People, women especially, struggle.
>>  KATHY:  And I think, too, one of the things that as a woman you tend to probably see your role — especially if you are married and have children — it’s a wife and mother first.  So you don’t really see your career or even your hobby is something that you really should put yourself wholeheartedly into if you enjoy them.
And so frequently I think what happens with women is that they look at a situation and they might say, you know, I’d like to do this someday. Or someday I am going to write a book.  Or someday I’m, you know, I’m going to own this type of store.  But what happens is I think that someday doesn’t ever really come because you get in your situation and you keep telling yourself well, you know, I’ll do it whenever the kids get older.  Or I’ll do it whenever the last one graduates from college.  Or I’ll do it whenever I’m closer to retirement.
And what really happens is you just use all the excuses up until there isn’t really too much time left to go about making that change.  And I think a lot of time you do it because it’s just safer.  It’s more comfortable.  It’s — you may very much have a feeling that you want to do something else but that can be really scary, particularly, if you’ve been out of the work force.  Or even out of putting yourself first and deciding what you really want to do for a while.  It’s difficult to get back out there and say, you know, now I’m going to roll up my sleeves and do that.
>>  JOEL:  It really is but what I’ve also found is it helps women — because that’s kind of who we are talking about – it helps women become a more powerful version of themselves once they’re able to go against what they have done for a majority of their life.  And they start to focus in on what is it about themselves that brings passion, that brings fire.  And that is amazing when they do that.
And it’s completely opposite of how they’ve lived a certain period of their life.  And that’s not picking on anyone, that’s just kind of — for a lot of people the way it has been in their life.  What do you think?
>>  KATHY:  I think that’s so very true.  I talked with a woman not too long ago who told me that she had spent maybe the last 10 to 12 years of her life knowing that she wanted to open up an art studio.  And she said but I really didn’t think at the time that I wanted to open it up it was a good time for us to invest in that.  And I had children in college and I couldn’t see taking the money and spending it that way.  So I decided that, you know, maybe I really didn’t want to do that.
But after her children were gone and she was an empty nester, she continued to think, I really would like to do that.  She was approached by a friend one day who said to her, why would you choose to do that now in your life?  I mean, you know, she said you should just be worrying about retiring, going off and taking cruises or something somewhere.
And that comment — she told me that comment had really just was kind of a stop sign in her journey.  And at that point, apparently other people didn’t think that this was a really good thing for her to do and she was not going to do it.  But it still kind of gnawed at her and it really bothered her.
And then she started to convince herself well, maybe I will just do a few things out of my basement.     And she really didn’t share with anybody what she was doing except, you know, her husband.  She really didn’t tell her friends this is what she was doing.
But after about two years of doing this in her basement, she was shopping one day and went past an art gallery and mentioned to someone that she had some pieces.  And they said, why don’t you bring them in?
And she did.  And she began to sell some which boosted her confidence and, you know, lo and behold, a couple of years later, she did open her art studio.  And she opened it up when she was 58 years old.
>>  JOEL:  Really?
>>  KATHY:  And she said it was the best thing she ever did herself.  And just to hear that made me think, I’m sure there are a lot of other people besides her.  But, you know, I think something that we see a lot in society is we look at what other opinions, people’s opinions are of what we want to do or what we can do.
And especially, women again, judge whether or not that’s an appropriate image for them to have.  Because, obviously, if my friends don’t think this is a great time or, you know, my family’s not supportive, then it’s probably not a great time.  And so immediately they shelve those ideas again.  Sometimes on the back burner forever but sometimes for far longer than they need to have them shelved simply because, you know, the consensus was, why would you want to do this?  Or, you know, what’s the point of that?
And she said I really wasn’t looking to make it a career and make money out of it.  I just wanted to have a past time where I could maybe encourage others to enjoy art as much as I had when I was younger.  And she said that had been a goal of hers since she was probably about 25 years old.
>>  JOEL:  That’s an amazing story.  And it happens.
>>  KATHY:  It happens.
>>  JOEL:  It absolutely happens.  You know, when women, men get in touch with who they are their best features and their enduring qualities as well.  But in my experience, and I’m a guy saying this, women are able to connect with themselves at a deeper level for the most part.  And what I found is that there’s not only a need for them to do that but there’s also a hunger within them.  Have you found that out as well?
>>  KATHY:  I think that’s very true.  I think it’s extremely true of women who have possibly even been, you know, the generation of women who were college-degreed and went on and made a career out of, you know, something they were trained to do and enjoyed it.  And again, but never really found that it was their fire.
>>  JOEL:  Right.
>>  KATHY:  And they were for the longest time, and maybe — you know, your fire can be different at different times of your life.
>>  JOEL:  No question.
>>  KATHY:  Obviously, when I was in the midst of raising young children, my fire was my young children and my family.  And, you know, they were number one and I — I didn’t care if I didn’t have time to do some things just for me because to be very honest with you, I was much happier doing things with them.
>>  JOEL:  Sure.
>>  KATHY:  And for them.  But I think what happens is maybe you get into a stage where after you have done it, you have two pictures or two views of yourself.  You are either somebody’s mother and wife or you are a teacher or a nurse or an engineer or, you know, whatever it is that you did with your career.  And somewhere between that, you think, hmm, I should have something that really, you know, charges me up and really gets me fired up.
But I can’t find it because this portion of my life is in some ways completed and this portion of my life I’ve just been doing for 25 or 30 years.  And it’s all I know how to do.  So I think that there’s also that, you know, aspect were you just kind of wonder when you’re going through those motions all these years.  Was I supposed to have another fire or was there something that I missed?  And that’s the kind of stuff that I’m trying to get people to go back and look at.
A lot of times I think what people want isn’t even necessary another career.  They want something that fulfills them and they enjoy doing just because they love doing it.
>>  JOEL:  Right.
>>  KATHY:  You know, and sometimes it’s just going out and there may be a cause they really want to support and they want to throw themselves into volunteering.  Or, you know, connecting with people so that they can really be motivated to aspire to a certain cause and, you know, get people more aware of those things so it really might be a grassroots movement that they just want to go after.
Sometimes it is a vocation.  Sometimes it can turn into a career where you make money but I think for a lot of people, it’s just one of those things were they get to a point and they say wow, you know, I have so many years in so this is all there is.  And it’s not about the money, and it’s not about the experience.  It’s more about how much satisfaction did I derive from it and how much am I giving back because of it?
>>  JOEL:  You’re right.  You are absolutely right.  Real excited about your book and I know it’s almost to the printing stages.  And then right after that, you are putting together a workshop — a “Finding Your Fire” workshop to help women do exactly what it is that we’ve been talking about.  Helping them find their fire. So if you would, Kathy — and we’ll kind of come in for a landing on this — talk about the vision that you have for the workshop.  And how it’s going to help women get in touch with their fire so that they can then use it as they’re moving forward in their life.
>>  KATHY:  Well, the workshop will actually be held on March 24th.
>>  JOEL:  Okay.
>>  KATHY:  In Marietta Georgia.  And one of the points in our workshop is to ask people, you know — one of the things we hope to ask them is, do you feel you are in a rut?  Do you feel you are stuck where you are?  Do you want more in your life?  And do you think you have more to offer?  And, you know, let’s see how we can get you to the point where you feel like yes, yes this is my reason.
>>  JOEL:  This is my reason.  I love that.
>>  KATHY:  This is my reason.
>>  JOEL:  This is my reason.
>>  KATHY:  The workshop will be — there will be three speakers in the workshop.  And one of the speakers is going to be talking about the disc personality and how personalities do — or aspects of a personality — do have a lot to do with the way we handle the things we want to do in life.  Or the things we don’t want to do in life.  And why some of them are for us and why some of them are probably not good things for us to be doing.  So she’s going to be dealing with that as well as just kind of getting women to soul search the fuel they need, so to speak, to get them going.
We are also going to help them develop a mission statement for what they want to do.  So they can use whatever fire they hope to ignite in a way that they really feel is purposeful.  And, you know, we’re going to talk about that and share that with them.  We are going to talk about leadership qualities with them and talk about how to maybe take the stage in the age that you’re at and look at what kind of options you have available.
And another thing that we’re going to try to do is make sure that we introduce them to people.  We will have some speakers coming in as part of the conference, people that actually did that who changed entire careers or changed an entire direction of where their life was going.
>>  JOEL:  Any speakers that I know?
>>  KATHY:  Actually, we have Kent is going to be there for part of our afternoon.
>>  JOEL:  You talking about Kent Julian?
>>  KATHY:  Kent Julian.  And he’s going to be talking about, you know, moving from the direction of a school counselor into what he is doing now which is, you know, basically a great entrepreneur for other people to access and build their speaking and their writing careers on.
>>  JOEL:  Kent Julian is a good friend.  Kent Julian is live it forward.com.  And he is a – he is an action-packed guy.
>>  KATHY:  He really is.  And I think he got us very motivated as we attempted his —
>>  JOEL:  Oh, he can’t motivate anyone.
>>  KATHY:  When we attended his speaker’s boot camp, I think one of the things we realized is there are a lot of hidden talents in people that you don’t even think about putting out until somebody really asks you to, you know, kind of do a diagnosis of yourself.
>>  JOEL:  You’re right.
>>  KATHY:  And if you critique yourself, you realize, hmm, okay, I really do have that.  But that was very motivating.  So, you know, also having an opportunity to hear from several speakers.  We have a couple  people who just basically did 360s in their entire career.  Some by choice, some by need.
And we thought it would just be a good thing to hear how they did it and why they did it.  So that people could, you know, just hear from ordinary people who are in a far different place in their life.  Our conference is called “A Called Woman.”
>>  JOEL:  A called woman?
>>  KATHY:  A called woman.
>>  JOEL:  Okay.
>>  KATHY:  Because we believe that everybody has a calling.  And biblically, you know, as God created woman he said and I will call her woman.  So part of the aspect of the conference is just to help women find their best self.
>>  JOEL:  Okay.
>>  KATHY:  And it’s going to be a very fun day.  We have a lot of things lined up for them.  A lot of hands-on activity.
>>  JOEL:  It sounds like it.
>>  KATHY:  They’re going away with having a lot of fun.  There really are.
>>  JOEL:  A called woman.
>>  KATHY:  A called woman.
>>  JOEL:  Okay.  And Kathy, that is so exciting.  I’m excited for you to come back on the show and tell us all about the event and some of the things that you saw because you will see miracles happen that day.
>>  KATHY:  I hope so.  I think we will.  I agree.
>>  JOEL:  Absolutely.  What’s the best way to get in touch with you and to learn more about your book and your upcoming workshop?
>>  KATHY:  Right now, I’m in the process of developing the website for the book and the easiest way to probably reach me is to reach me at my BlogSpot which is findingyourfire.blogspot.com.
>>  JOEL:  Okay.
>>  KATHY:  And we’re just kind of counting down on that blog until the book is out.
>> JOEL:  Okay.  Gotcha.
>>  KATHY:  The website on that.  They can also if they’re interested in the conference, it’s “A called woman.com.”
>>  JOEL:  A called woman.com?
>>  KATHY:  Right.  And they can go on there and they will be able to make reservations on there.  They can take a look at what the schedule is for the day.  They will be able to look at some of the speakers that are going to be there and what we will be talking about.   So, you know — access there’s a telephone number on there as well where they can come directly talk to someone as well if they have any questions about the conference.
>>  JOEL:  Very good.  A lot of things going on for you, Kathy.  Thank you so much for sharing.  And look forward to our next, our next visit.
>>  KATHY:  Oh that sounds great.  I’m so glad.  I appreciated the time that you gave me and we’ll be delighted to tell people to check back in and see where we’re going with this.  We’re thrilled.
>>  JOEL:  Exciting time in your life, Kathy.  Thanks so much for your time.  Have a wonderful rest of your day and may God bless you in a powerful, powerful way.
>>  KATHY:  Thank you so much, Joel.

Fighting for a Chance

with Joel Boggess

“Fighting For a Chance” with Jonathan Spinks

Podcast #94, January 28, 2012

Link to podcast

Transcript provided by:
Speech Text Access LLC


>> JOEL: Hi.  It’s me Joel and you’re listening to “Finding Your Voice.”  And joining us on the show today is a man who has known victory, at least victory by the world’s standards.  In his professional fighting career, he not only went 8 ½ years without losing a fight, but all of his wins, his professional wins, came by way of knockout.
Jonathan, I’m sure we could go on for several shows talking about your greatest hits, so to speak, and some of your best memories from the ring.  But if it’s okay with you, I’d like to talk about the Jonathan Spinks behind the fighter.  I liked to talk about the Jonathan Spinks that was there after the fans and after the reporters went home.
Now right before the show, you said —  you were telling me a story about how you were winning in the ring but at the same time you were losing a bigger fight.  You were losing a fight in life.  So, pick up with that and help me understand, please.
>> JONATHAN: Well, that’s exactly right, Joel.  And thanks for having me on the show today.  I’m really excited about being here.
>> JOEL: Yes.
>> JONATHAN: But, yeah, that’s the thing.  You know, fighting just engulfed my life.  I started when I was 13.  I fought my whole life growing up.  And it’s kind of odd to look back now and see one of the main reasons why I started fighting.  I had a Marine Corps father that was pretty brutal, pretty mean.  And it seemed like I grew up in kind of a boot camp atmosphere and so many times we think as parents – you know, I’m a parent now.  I have a 6 year old and 4 year old at home.
So many times we don’t — I think parents don’t realize how they influence the child at a very young age because I would’ve sworn that I was not influenced in regards to boxing or fighting but isn’t it odd now to look back and see that my dad was a very mean, angry individual.  But it had a lot to do with my career and I did have a good career.
You know, I had everything that I thought would make me happy.  I mean, at 19 years old I’m living in a house with a swimming pool.  I’ve got cigarette boats. I’ve got Cadillacs, Mercedes, and I never made a million dollars or anything but I had enough money to pay for everybody’s party on the weekend and thought I was living it large.  I thought, gosh, this is how fighters do it.  But the thing is, you’re exactly right.  I was winning in my sport and actually I don’t know what it feels like not to have a referee hold my hands up after one of my fights.  I have no idea, Joel, what it would feel like to be knocked out on the ground.
But if I’ll be honest with everybody listening, I knew totally what it felt like to lose in life and that’s where you can really lose.  You can gain the whole world and think you got everything that makes you happy.  I know I’ve got a lot of friends that have great careers and even housewives that that think, hey, raising the family and doing this thing at home is on top of the world but yet be very miserable in their personal life.       And so that that’s where I was losing big time was there was a complete emptiness, an unhappiness.
I was obviously looking to fill that hole.  I had no idea what that terminology sounded like.  I thought this is just me.  It’s just my life.  It’s just how it goes.  But you know I think so many times we believe the lies that that this is who I am and my parents were who my parents were and this neighborhood that I’m in now and I can’t accept anything different and so I kind of did that as a young man.  And because of that, I started sinking in to this what was my reality at that time was life was very hard very tough and very brutal.
>> JOEL:  How long did that go on, Jonathan?  Were you were just living and believing the lies about who you were as a fighter and as a person?
>> JONATHAN: Yeah.  It went on my whole younger life, my whole entire younger life.  I’d say probably from 24 years old younger was all about believing that lie and all about trying to search for the things that would make me happy.  You know, it’s funny people look at professional athletes a lot of time — which I was one, it was a long time ago now but was one — and think that the glitter and the lights and the lights coming on after the fight and that whole lifestyle is something that’s attractive.  But what they don’t realize is that you’ve got to live life 24/7.
You know those fights only lasted — gosh, I didn’t have a single fight go past the fourth round and so they lasted very short.  And sure there’s a little party afterwards.  You are thinking this is all what it’s all about.  That’s another two hours where you got to live life the rest of the year and the rest of the month and the rest of the week.  And it was during those times when I was very, very miserable and a very angry young man.  And it’s wild now to look at now the thing that I’m doing today is trying to be impactful and change lives in that very same area where young, young men, especially these military guys that coming back from Iraq, are very, very angry and looking for life.
>> JOEL: Yes.
>> JONATHAN: And doing some of the same stuff I was doing.
>> JOEL: I want to definitely hear more about that but tell me a little bit about where you were psychologically and emotionally at that point in your life.  How hard did you try to  live up to, I don’t know,  the lies that you believed or others people’s expectations when you were still there trying to figure out what to do after the lights shut off and everybody left and it was just you?
>> JONATHAN: Yeah, well, that’s an interesting piece.  You know, that’s something that kind of came natural really. It’s wild how a sinful life comes very natural to anybody.  And so I just kind of thought, hey, this is just how it rolls.  It wasn’t like I really had to try for that aspect of it.  But trying to be happy and have some peace.  I just had no peace in my life at all.  I mean, I just remember times again and again I was sitting in my bed at night with misery on my mind and with a lot of anger and all the violence that comes with that sport.
You know, one of the things that I found out really the hard way that there’s a real enemy of anger and its wild today, Joel.  I get an opportunity to speak in a lot of churches and a lot of from NFL teams to schools to prisons to all sorts of people, corporate functions.  But its wild now, Joel.  I don’t know if you realize it but when I’m in this position how many wives come up to me and say, boy you know my husband is a minister but you have no idea how angry he is at home.
There’s a real issue there that I’m able to able to kind of break through a little bit, I guess, of what God has taught me and shown me through this thing of anger.  So it touches all facets of life and a lot of women.  Don’t be so foolish enough to think that there’s not a lot of women today that struggle with this anger.  And it’s the same anger that I dealt with in the ring.  Same anger that I dealt with.  Anger is anger.  And it’s very similar to what plagued me my whole life.
>> JOEL: Okay.
>> JONATHAN: But one of the things, one of the real tickets to getting past that that I would love for the audience to know — it’s a real secret, if you will — of stamping out the anger issues in a person’s life and, Joel, that’s all wrapped up in one word and that’s called forgiveness.  You know, I had to learn to forgive my father.  And one of the things that I learned very quickly was I was not going to be very successful in anything after my sport.
After I got out, I wasn’t going to be very successful at anything unless I solved this issue.  This real deep-seated issue I had of anger and it was a lot towards my father.  So I had to somehow come to grips with forgiving my father and one of the first things I’ll never forget I thought was my father doesn’t deserve to be forgiven.  I wonder who’s listening to me today that’s thinking of somebody that doesn’t deserve to be forgiven?  Maybe it’s a crime that happened.  Maybe it’s a husband. Maybe it’s a wife.  Maybe it’s a divorce.  You know, maybe it’s something else that just went on and they’re thinking how nobody deserves to be forgiven for what they did to me.  And I had to come to grips with that as well.
But, Joel, the one reason that we forgive is not because people deserve it or because it’s right or wrong, we forgive simply because Jesus Christ forgave us.  See, Joel, one of the things I realized was I knew how bad I was. I knew how rotten I was.  Nobody had to convince me of that.  And I knew it way down deep inside of my core of how many bad things that I had done.  And so I knew that if Jesus Christ could forgive me of all those things, of all that rotten bad things that I’ve done, gosh, surely, surely, I could learn to forgive somebody that hadn’t done nearly as bad things as I had done.
>> JONATHAN: Now take me to the steps here.  Take me to the steps here of how you are able to make a spiritual reconciliation with your dad or how you were able to make a spiritual reconciliation with yourself.
>> JONATHAN: Yeah.  You know, that’s a long story but I’ll give you the nuts and bolts of it.
>> JOEL: Sure.
>> JONATHAN: I went through a real process of transformation.  And I think part of what I live by is tough times can do a lot to change a man, can change a person.  And there was a lot of those tough times that came along in my life.  I got shot in the head with a sawed-off shotgun.  I almost died living that crazy life.  I hit a car on a motorcycle doing 120 miles an hour.  There were many, many times when I could have – when I was literally at the point of death and for me that’s kind of what it took for me was to get to some drastic point of almost dying before I could finally say, okay, what else is there?
It’s a tragedy for me to see so many people in this world today that have to go through something really, really tough before they’ll finally say, okay, God, what do you have for me?  What are you trying to teach me?  What are you trying to show me?  It was after a series of a lot of events like that.  Tragic events that happened in my life before I finally — it was after the motorcycle accident.
I hit a car doing almost 120.  I was in the hospital with casts on both my legs, a cast on my right arm where I finally was on rock bottom, ready to look up.  That was my rock-bottom.  Everybody’s got their own rock-bottom.  But that was my time of saying, okay, there’s got to be a different way.  There’s got to be something else to this life that somehow I’m just missing it.
And you know, Joel, very honestly I didn’t think Christianity was it.  I didn’t think it was for me.  I didn’t understand it.  I knew about it but I just didn’t think that was my answer.  I thought Christians were not anything like me.  It wasn’t all about fighting.  It wasn’t all about sports.  It wasn’t all about the fun and glitter and lights.  But I’ll never forget it.  A guy walked into my hospital bed that — my hospital room that day when I had the casts on both legs and one arm.
I was in the greatest shape of my life at that time, walking through everybody in my sport, in tiptop physical condition.  I trained like a madman.  I ran ten miles a day every day.  My diet was perfect.  I ate nothing but chicken and vegetables.  And so I literally went from tiptop physical condition to the worst condition I’d ever been in in my life there in that motorcycle accident.  And I was sitting in that hospital bed knowing something should change and a man walked into my hospital room, Joel, that day.  I barely knew him.  I knew a little bit about him but barely knew the guy.  I knew who he was.  And he began talking to me about Christianity.  Began talking to me about faith, about God.  And I’ll tell you, Joel, it all sounded like Japanese to me.  I’m like I don’t know what this guy is saying.  I mean it’s even hard for me to understand.
Sometimes I think as Christians we speak to people that are not Christians or maybe people that are on the bow or on the fence.  And when you use all this language that doesn’t sound right, it sounds like what is he speaking in, Korean or something?  So it didn’t sound right but I caught a phrase that he told me. And I’ll never forget it.  I caught a phrase.  And that phrase that he began to say was, your life can be totally different.  Well see, that I knew I needed.  I didn’t understand all the God stuff but knew I needed — I was smart enough to know that I needed a different life.  So I began to inquire about that.  I began to ask him what are you – how can you tell me that, right?  How can you tell me my life could be radically different from it is today?
I thought to myself, doesn’t this God know who my dad was?  Doesn’t he know my family?  Doesn’t he know my neighborhood I came from?  See, so many times I believe we believe the lie of where we came from is who we are today.  So I didn’t — I totally could not see how everything could change.  But I asked him, I said, how are you going to tell me that everything can change?  And here’s what he told me.  He says not only can I guarantee you that everything in your life can radically change, he says I can tell you exactly how to get that.  Well, now I’m listening, right?
>> JOEL: Sure.
>> JONATHAN: He’s fixing to give me the real secret behind this whole thing and now I’m wide open.  I’m all ears.  What in the world could he be saying?  Here’s what he told me.  He says everything in your life can change.  Everything can be different.  And all you need for that to happen is a man named Jesus Christ.
>> JOEL: Okay.
>> JONATHAN: And I thought boy if that’s the ticket, that’s all I need.  I thought, well gosh, I’ve tried everything else.  I’ve done everything else. I’ve had the glitter and lights and all the toys I thought made me happy.  I’m a miserable individual. I thought, okay, I’m going to try this Jesus Christ.  And I said a little simple prayer that day but I don’t remember the words.
And I think too many times we hone in on words but I remember my heart, Joel, I remember my heart was that I’m all in.  My heart said okay.  I don’t know how this is going to be but I’m going to try to do this thing God’s way from here on out.  So I said a little simple prayer asking Jesus Christ into my life to change me, to come into my heart, to save my soul, to come to a place where I was reborn.  And I experienced that, Joel.  I experienced a radical transformation that I would’ve never dreamed possible there in that hospital bed that to this very day has done exactly what that man told me.  It transformed my life.
>> JOEL:  Not only did it –
>> JONATHAN:  And you know, Joel, that’s just kind of what I want to be a part of today.  It happened to me and I just want to see everybody else that I come in contact with experience that same transformation when they’re empty, when they’re losing in life.  We got so many military guys coming back from Iraq that are losing in life big time but I want to see them win.  And I found out the hard way what it takes to win and that’s through a man named Jesus Christ.
>> JOEL: Indeed.  Indeed.  Wow, what a powerful, powerful story, Jonathan.  Thank you so much for sharing that.  And I want to talk about another thing before we get into what you are currently working on and I know you got some exciting projects that are already in the works for you.  You know, you accepted Jesus Christ there in the hospital bed and like the man said it did totally transform your life but it didn’t mean that it was going to be all of a sudden simple.  And that it was all – that it was going to be — well, it’s a piece of cake now.  Here’s your get out of jail free card and be on your way.
But there are still hurdles there and there was a big hurdle there for you and it goes back to the forgiveness because you had something that you needed to — and I’m getting ready start crying now — but you had something in your life that was very significant that you needed to forgive God for.  And sometimes he can be the hardest one to forgive so talk about your son.
>> JONATHAN: Yeah, you bet.  I’d love to.  Love to talk about my son.  That’s the saying is we feel like when we become a Christian so many times people tell us everything’s going to be great.  Everything’s all about prosperity and God wants you to have the best and the greatest.  And life doesn’t really work that way.  I found out real quickly that because I was a Christian, I didn’t live in a bubble. So many times I think there’s many — even denominations that just feel like we’re in a bubble now.  We’re all protected.  We’re praying properly and we’re walking properly and God’s on our side now.
But I found out tough times still come even when you’re living life properly.  I was extremely disciplined in my sport.  And I found out very quickly that I could translate that discipline into my Christian life also.  And man, I could march exactly how you wanted me to march.  I read the Bible the best I could.  All of the Ten Commandments, read it constantly.  I knew how it was supposed to go and because of that, quite honestly, I was very religious in that regard and in my march and how that thing went.
But even in that I found that tough times would still come and I thought how can this be?  Right?  I’m a Christian now.  God’s on my side now.  But I began to realize there’s an enemy out here in this world also that people don’t recognize.  And that is the enemy that comes to kill, steal, and destroy and that’s Satan and all his little posse.  Right?
>> JOEL: Sure.
>> JONATHAN: So they ganged up on me and I went through some things that were very, very, very hard.  And one of the things that I’ll talk about today is I went through a divorce and that’s something that just crushed me.  And I thought God will never use me again.  I’m done.  I’m through.  How am I ever going to minister someday with having that title behind my name?  And it was a very humbling experience.  It was nothing I wanted.  I tried to fight against it but it was just inevitable on the other party.     And I went through it and I thought, wow, even thought of suicide during those times.  I’m just being very, very honest with you.  A very brutal thing that I went through.  But you know what?  God restored that life after that.  Mind and things went on and got better and God used me anyway even after that circumstance.
So then I got married.  And my very first born son, which I had just waited my whole life for, I thought this is one of the pinnacles of my life.  I was actually 40 years old before I had my first child.  And I thought, boy, this is it.  This is what it amounts to.  This is where it goes.  And I had a son, my very first born son, named Nathan that I was just enamored by.  And at a year and a half old, my son started watching TV a little bit crooked one day and I thought what was wrong?  Maybe he needs glasses, I don’t know.
We took my son to the doctor, to five or six different doctors.  Nobody could really diagnose him.  They didn’t really know.  And finally, I went to about the fifth or sixth doctor and he says I’ve got to give you some news that is probably the worst news I’ll ever have to give in my career.  And as a matter fact, I’ll probably give this news only a couple of times in my entire doctor career.  And he says your son has brain cancer.  And he says it’s in a position — it’s a type – it’s in a place where there is really nothing you can do.  He says, quite honestly, your son will die.
And I thought, you got to be kidding me?  Right?  How in the world could this be happening?  I’m a man of God.  I’m a man of sincere faith. I’m living out this life God wanted.  I’m making an impact in this world and its three years old to about a year and half fight with that disease.  My son went to be with the Lord at three years old.  So it was a very, very trying time, a very tough time.  I just can’t tell you what all happened during that time.  It would take days and weeks.
But, Joel, the thing about that I’m at today is I’m at peace with that because if we have God’s vision, that’s the thing.  We have to get out of this worlds’ vision sometimes here and now and realize it’s not about where we’re at now but it’s where we’re going.  And the thing I’m excited about is I’ll see my son again.  Those of us who have lost loved ones we got to kind of get God’s picture about this whole thing and not our own feeble minds because it didn’t work out that way because I wanted it to.  I was crushed about it.  And I was sad about it.  I’d like to have my son here today.
I wonder how many people who are listening who have loved ones that are not with them?  But those of us that believe in Jesus Christ and are sincere about that, the Bible says we’ll spend forever and ever and ever with our loved ones not only with Jesus Christ but with our loved ones.  And so the fact is I’ve got a job to do while I’m here.  I’m still breathing.  I haven’t taken my last breath.  And I, along with the rest of your audience, we have a job to do and that’s to make an impact.  That’s to make a difference in this world.  Not just to exist and take up and breathe air or have a job or advance in our careers or build a bigger better home, but we have an opportunity to make an impact in this world and that’s what I’m still trying to do.  And I can’t wait to see my son again.
>> JOEL: Absolutely, wow, Jonathan.  What a powerful, powerful story.  Thank you so much for sharing that.  I really appreciate your transparency here.  And what I’d like to do now is shift into the impact that you’re making.  I know you’ve got a heart for the military.
And you’ve done some amazing things and you’re currently in the process of putting together some wonderful programs to help our returning soldiers from Iraq.  So talk about that.  Talk about just some of the other activities you are doing.  I know you’re speaking to churches, in prisons, you know all over the map.  Like you talked about earlier so catch us up to speed, would you please?
>> JONATHAN: Yeah, you bet.  I’d love to.  And thanks for the opportunity.  Back in 2005, God just kind of dropped something in my lap that I was not prepared for.  But it was an opportunity to go to the Pentagon and start a 501(c) 39 profit foundation to help our troops so I did that in 2005.  I stepped away from my career.  I had a very good career that I was enjoying, making money and things were progressing and I had all of these visions of God making me a millionaire.
But you know, I felt the tug of the Lord and stepped away from that whole saying and says there’s a people here, a culture here that need an impact from Jesus Christ.  And that same impact that I received and that’s the military.  And so it’s called OSU Tour and the easy way to remember that is USO backwards.
>> JOEL: Okay.
>> JONATHAN: O-S-U-T-O-U-R, OSUTOUR.org will go right straight to my website and of course people can look on there and see how we’re trying to be impactful.  But one of the great projects that I’m working on right now that I mentioned to you when we spoke earlier but it’s a trade school.  One of the things that I see these military guys we’ve got to be a little bit practical with impact in life.  I don’t believe in just standing in front of and preaching to them but if I can be practical and how I’m being practical in this sense is starting a trade school.
And what we’re doing is we’re working on military trucks.  We’re transforming and restoring military trucks but in the same exact opportunity doing that, we’re trying to create a trade school that will restore a soldier’s life and restore a soldier’s wife and get them out of that lifestyle that’s very damaging to them.  There’s so many guys coming back with suicide, with posttraumatic stress, sexual assault is through the roof in regards to the military, and they’re really having some issues.
Its wild how many people are trying to help them but that’s really just kind of a Band-Aid and they’re not doing what it really takes to transform a live and that is a life with Jesus Christ.  So some of those things that we’re trying to accomplish and striving to accomplish with our military to be able to give them the kind of life they deserve.
I think you kind of mentioned before the show, they’re winning a great battle in Iraq and Afghanistan.  Our soldiers are unbelievably trained and the job they’re doing is just phenomenal.  They’re the best in the world.  But they’re coming home and losing the biggest battle in their entire life and that’s the battle at home.  Because the divorce rates show is almost 80% on some military bases. There’s a lot of children it affects.  There’s almost 2.5 kids per home.  That’s military numbers per kids per home so when you got that kind of divorce rate, that’s a lot of children’s lives being devastated from families being torn apart also.  So there’s a lot that needs to be done.
And I’m for giving the troops things.  So many people want to write a letter and let me tell you, the troops are covered up with letters.  And they want to make them a crocheted blanket.  And there are so many things done which I don’t want to sound like I’m against because I’m for doing those things.  But I just think we’re missing the boat a little bit by not introducing them to a life, a transformation life that can happen that’s only through Jesus Christ.
But, like I say, we’ve got to be a little bit practical and nobody can really walk up to me as a fighter and preach in my face and say you need Jesus.  You need to go to church and that didn’t work for me.  But there was a practical way.  A simple way that once I heard my life could be different, my life could be better.  I wanted to know about that.
>> JOEL: Absolutely.  Wow.  What a wonderful work that you’re doing.  What a wonderful vision.  I’m a big military supporter so anything that is pro-military is definitely pro-our show.  So thank you so much Jonathan for being a part of that and for supporting our troops.  And what a wonderful gift to give.     Anything else that we need to cover?  I know you’re a busy guy.  I really appreciate your time here today.
>> JONATHAN: It’s great to be on your show, Joel.  I appreciate the opportunity.
>> JOEL: Absolutely.  What’s the best way that we can get in touch with you and learn more about the OSU and the speaking that you’re doing and the impact that you’re having?
>> JONATHAN: Yeah, you bet.  The best way to get in touch with me in regards to the work that I’m doing today and that would be OSU tour, that’s O-S-U-T-O-U-R.org.  But from my personal standpoint, I do have a personal website called J Spinks.  It’s my first initial, last name.  That’s J-S-P-I-N-K-S.org.  And I do have quite a bit on there about my son.
So if anybody has lost a loved one, especially a child with cancer or there’s a lot of parents that are struggling with their sons and daughters not coming home from Iraq and Afghanistan so I’ve tried to put some things on there that kind of just shed some light on that story, also my personal website.  But, anyway, those are linked together and you can get any of my information on those websites.
>> JOEL: Okay.  Fantastic.  I did a call not too long ago about passion and one of the places that passion can be burst is through a traumatic experience.  And that’s some of what I covered in the call that I did not too long ago.  But I so much admire and respect what you’re doing because you’ve taken, Jonathan, the traumatic experiences that you suffered in your life and that you’ve walked through and that Christ has brought you through and you’ve harnessed that energy and you’ve harnessed the lessons that you’ve learned and – just kind of let me preach here for a second, if you will.  And you’ve harnessed the lessons that you learned and you’ve used them to drive your cause.
And there is amazing things that happen when a person surrenders, surrenders to God, surrenders to Christ.  And just lets it happen.  Amazing things happen when people are courageous enough to surrender in that way and, gosh, Jonathan.
>> JONATHAN: Yeah.  I hope your audience knows that they have a choice.  It’s a choice we have —
>> JOEL: Yes.
>> JONATHAN: — when traumatic things happen.  You know I could’ve turned the other way.  I remember so many times —
>> JOEL: You had every reason to.
>> JONATHAN: Even the death of my son — I was still on top of that hospital even after the death of my son and said I could either go the world’s way and be mad and angry and curse God or I can serve him anyway.  So we do have a choice as human beings when something bad happens to us.  And I just pray and hope that your listening audience will just continue to follow God’s way.  Not their own way, not the world’s way because that’s the enemy that wants to destroy them.
But if we’ll do things God’s way, it will work out.  God does bless.  I can say wholeheartedly today God is always good.  I’ve learned things that I would never have learned hadn’t it been for the death of my son.  So I can truly praise the Lord for a lot of that.  It didn’t go how I wanted it but I can praise the Lord and be at peace.  And know that my time on this Earth is still here and we can choose to make an impact in this world.
>> JOEL: Absolutely.  And you are doing just that.  God bless you, Jonathan.  Thank you so much for your time and I can’t wait till our next conversation.
>> JONATHAN: Okay, Joel.  Thanks for having me.
>> JOEL: All the best.

Her Rallying Cry for Women–“Let the Adventure Begin!”

with Joel Boggess

Her Rallying Cry for Women — “Let the adventure begin!”

Podcast #102, February 27, 2012

Link to podcast
Transcript provided by:
Speech Text Access LLC

(  music  )

>>    I have a voice.

>>    I have a voice.

>>    I have a voice and no one can (UNINTELLIGIBLE) but me.

>>    Knowing my voice is understanding who I really am.

>>    What excites me and what I stand for.

>>    I owe it to myself.  I owe it to my family.

>>    I owe it to God.  When you find your voice, you find a way back.

>>    You find a way back.

>>    You find a way back to yourself.

( end music  )

>>Joel:    Hi, it’s me, Joel; and you’re listening to Finding Your Voice.  Joining us today is Pam from Ohio.  Pam, it is a pleasure to have you back on the show.  Thanks for your time.

>>Pam:    You’re very welcome, Joel.  It’s a pleasure to be here.

>>Joel:    Indeed, thank you, thank you.  Been looking forward to today’s show.  You and I wrapped up our coaching not too long ago, and this is an exciting period in your life because one of the things that you discovered as you went through the process is that the best occupational fit for you — work you love — is to create your own job — or not really a job — but to create your own opportunity.  I’m excited about what you’re doing.  You’re creating and building a women’s ministry called Flourish.  For folks who haven’t heard our earlier shows, catch us up to speed a little bit on the purpose of Flourish and what it is you hope to do, and we’ll go from there.

>>Pam:    Okay, that sounds good.  I’d be happy to do that.  I’m going to share my mission and vision statement.  Then I will catch you up to speed because I’ve been working on a one-liner.  (LAUGHTER)  Just to further clarify what Flourish will do.

>>Joel:    Okay.

>>Pam:    Basically, the purpose of Flourish is to inspire women, ages 40+ around the world, to live fun, creative, invigorating, adventurous and balanced lives.  The goal will be to, basically, teach women their value to God and how to value themselves.  What I will do is use multimedia, in particular, starting with a blog to explore topics to teach what this adventurous lifestyle looks like, and how she can create a flourishing lifestyle.  I’ve been working on a few things.  I really want  to keep the momentum going.  Not just from coaching, but from the decisions that I’ve made.  I really want to take a brief moment to say I’m going through coaching with you really help me to clarify that it’s important for me to embrace who I am, what my strengths are, and to begin to act on that.  A lot of times we get to that point where we make those decisions, but then we are afraid when opposition comes and we don’t act.  I don’t want to peter out here at this point.  My goal is to run.  That’s what I keep hearing from the Lord.  Run! You know, run! Don’t run back; run forward.  That’s what I’ve been doing.

>>Joel:    Absolutely.  If you are courageous enough, like you are, Pam, to move and to run, God has that ability to reach down from heaven and redirect our steps.  The thing is we have to be moving for him to be able to do that.

>>Pam:    I agree.  I think that’s a great statement.  I think that’s a really great statement.  That’s what’s been happening.  There, actually, is a book, if you don’t mind, I’ll mention it, it’s by Max Lucado, if I said his name the right way.  It’s called The Dream Giver.

>>Joel:    Yes.

>>Pam:    Have you read that?

>>Joel:    The Dream Giver is actually Bruce Wilkinson.

>>Pam:    Oh, sorry.  Sorry.

>>Joel:    I think that’s who it is.  But either way, Max or Bruce, but The Dream Giver.  So go ahead.  Talk about The Dream Giver.

>>Pam:     Yeah, The Dream Giver.  I may have the title wrong.  My boys and I have been using that as a Bible study.

>>Joel:    Sure, that’s a great one.

>>Pam:    It is! Anyway, the reason why I mentioned that is because I read that last year when I was stuck.  I’ve gone through the coaching process, and I’m unstuck, and I’m reading it again, and something in particular stood out in this book where it gets a story about a person by the name of nobody who is reaching for a goal: a big dream.  He actually comes — is faced with lots of opposition.  I’m caught from reading that book again is that you should expect opposition.  So I have had opposition, and it actually hasn’t been anything that’s been on the outside; it’s been everything on the inside.

Number one, mainly, thinking about how I would fund this business where I want to make money.  I don’t want to just do a business just to do good, I want to make money off of that.  That actually is something that is godly.  It’s expected that I prosper.

>>Joel:    Stop right there.  How hard was it — or was it hard — for you to get your head around that concept that, wait a minute, God wants us to be prosperous, which actually means lining your pockets and maybe watching your bank account increase in value.  Was that a challenge for you?

>>Pam:    It was a challenge, and I appreciate the question because this is — Flourish is a business/ministry; but a lot of times when you think about ministry, a lot of times people want everything to be free.

>>Joel:    Definitely sounds spiritual.  Hello?

>>Pam:    I’m there.  I hear you now.

>>Joel:    Okay.  Yeah, sorry about that.  Yes, definitely, it sounds like a spiritual word; but yeah, go ahead.

>>Pam:    So in any case, it did take — when you and I had our last conversation as we were wrapping up, I was in great angst over the financial side of this thinking — I just want Joel to tell me what I need to do.


>>Pam:    That’s not how you operate.


>>Joel:    You and everybody else would love it if I just started doing that.


>>Pam:    So anyway, I spent about a week just trying to think up ways and the Lord just gave me — just put it in my mind that instead of spending a whole week being fearful, what I should do is fast.  So I did.  I fasted, and I took the time and read about lots of scriptures on trust.  It led me to make some great decisions.

Number one, which actually brings you up to speed concerning Flourish, I made a decision that I needed to read another book which was the Four Hour Workweek.

>>Joel:    Okay.

>>Pam:    It’s a book that I heard about by Tim Ferriss.  It actually — hopefully, I have his name right.


That book, in particular, talks about automating businesses.  For quite some time I’ve been wanting to do a business that is Internet-based, make money, but not actually work 60 hours to do it.  I have other parts of my life that I’d like to explore and make those flourish, as opposed to everything being centered around making money.  This book gave me a lot of great information.  One idea, in particular, stood out which was to start with the end in mind.  I thought about   —  okay, Flourish, I’ve talked about what the goal is, who I intend on reaching and what information I want to share with her.  However, how do I intend on doing that?  What product am I going to produce?  So I’ve been thinking about those products, and I actually started writing an e-book about a month ago.  One of my products will be an e-book or e-books, plural; but then I will also have other bundled products of other individuals who have lots to offer to my particular audience along with the e-book in formats that I call quick format.  Most of the women, who are my intended audience, their struggle is time.  How do I find the time to even think about me, to discover who I am, to discover what I want to do and how can I fit that in and think about it now and not when whatever the challenge is?  Whether it’s when my children graduate from school, or when I have more money, or whatever.  I am packaging and looking for ways to package the e-book material and also the other information, like audio books that are in the quick formats that can be utilized within about an hour.

>>Joel:    Okay.

>>Pam:    The series of my e-books will be titled — the working title right now is Flourish in an Hour.

>>Joel:    Okay.  Wow, okay.

>>Pam:    Yes, and so the goal would be to have – I will tell you that just about everybody that lives here in my area, in Ohio, they are in commute if they have to work even 20 minutes away.  They are actually in commute about an hour a day.  So that’s an hour that a mom or a businesswoman could use going to and fro to actually flourish, to get their minds in the right frame of mind and also utilize that time to start making some decisions.

At this point, what I’ve done is I’ve written content for the first e-book.  The working title is – it was originally called A Decision to Trust; but actually, this morning I had a better idea: It All Begins With Trust.  I’m starting there and the goal is to make that in MP3 format as well so that women who may prefer to just listen as opposed to read have that opportunity to do that.  I’m looking into finishing that book tomorrow.  That’s the goal.  I do have quite a bit of content written.

>>Joel:    Good for you.

>>Pam:    Yeah, and then the goal is to utilize my products to set those in place first.  Bearing the end in mind as a foundation upon which to build Flourish.  My framework, which I envision as kind of a house, my framework is also in progress.  The branding – I’ll be working on that.  Sunday I’ll be meeting with two individuals to discuss my logo and also theme music for my podcast.  Also I meet with a second web designer.  I met with one and a virtual assistant, but I meet with the second web designer next Tuesday just to discuss how to put the blog in place, what I expect it to look like, and how I need it to function.

>>Joel:    Okay.

>>Pam:    So I’m moving.  I’m in motion.  I’m really excited about that.

>>Joel:    I’m excited for you as well.  Are you meeting with some of the people that I recommended?

>>Pam:    Yeah, I did meet with I Simplify.  I met with Missy.  She was fantastic.  I loved her.

>>Joel:    Missy’s phenomenal.  She has – she designed my website, and she designed Dan Miller’s website, and about 10,000 other people.  But yeah, you can go to 4pointscoaching.com or 48 days.com.  Both of those web addresses are using the numerals.  4pointscoaching.com, 48days.com just to sample some of Missy’s work.  She is phenomenal.  You’re right.

>>Pam:    I agree.  She gave me a lot of good information, and so we’re rocking and rolling in terms of where I need to go with her.  I do need to meet with another person to get some other ideas and make a decision.  I’m excited that I’ll be able to do that.  My goal is to actually get up and running by the 24th, to have my site up and to have my initial product offering by the 24th.

>>Joel:    You know that’s in a month, correct?


>>Pam:    I do.


>>Joel:    Okay, just checking.

>>Pam:    I – I do.  Now, I – I say this knowing how deadlines work.  I have to set a goal to get there.  This is my first go-round concerning any format of business like this.  If that doesn’t happen, I’m okay.  I could be flexible, but I need to have something to shoot for.  If I don’t, I won’t get there.

>>Joel:    Absolutely.  We have another show on the calendar for this time next month.

>>Pam:    Yeah.

>>Joel:    Guess what you’ll be talking about.

>>Pam:    Yeah, you will definitely have to update; and hopefully, you’ll have something to look at.

>>Joel:    Absolutely.  Already looking forward to that show.

Tell me about the concept, starting with the end in mind.  It’s a concept that Stephen Covey talks about at length in his book, 7 Habits.  Many other authors and speakers have talked about it.  You can also find that principle in the Bible.  Written in between some of the lines there.  Tell me about getting your head around that concept.  Was that a challenge?

>>Pam:    Actually, it wasn’t.  It was a relief.  It was a relief.

>>Joel:    Okay.  Tell me about the relief.

>>Pam:    The relief  — because — as I mentioned, I was in great angst over this idea of how to finance this.  I have two children.  I have myself.  I want to not only take care of us, but I want to actually –

>>Joel:    Flourish.

>>Pam:    Yes, flourish.  I’ve done business before in a very unprofitable motto.  I did not have the end in mind.  I was providing an excellent service to my clients, but I didn’t do things intentionally.  I actually did it by the seat of my pants and did things according to what my clients needs were but not thinking about my needs in terms of a business and even thinking about an overall vision for what I wanted to provide and even thinking about an epic: this is most important.  Even thinking about what I wanted to get out of the business for my life.  Something that has been very helpful in going through life/business coaching is putting the big picture in mind.  I’m doing Flourish as a lifestyle change, not just for a business but a ministry, but also to express my gifts and talents and prosper.

My one-liner I mentioned that I wrote up for this series of books to describe my products, or the purpose for them, is to help women who are 40+ live balanced, rich, adventurous lives.  That’s a journey that my customers and I are going to take together.  I want to live a life that is balanced, rich, and adventurous.  In order for me to do that, I need to have steady income.  It was a relief to think like that instead of me thinking about all of the stuff I needed to do, I thought about how am I going to take care of myself and my family and do that well.  What kind of things do I have available to me to come up with that foundation?

>>Joel:    Okay.  Okay.  Gotcha.  How is that process going for you as far as bringing those ideas and concepts together?

>>Pam    :Well, I was really a bit overwhelmed.  I’m telling you, these resources really make a difference; and I’m really excited about that.  I was listening to Mel Robbins CD again.  I’m on the last CD and some of the content I’ve been listening to over and over again.  She talks about being overwhelmed, and to pick something — well, what I’ve done is write out, where am I now?  Where do I need to go?  At this point, how can I accomplish that?  So I’ve written down – she called it a brain dump – as I’ve written down my brain dump, then I jump back in and say, okay, this is where I can start.  That’s what I did, even today, I wrote out this is what I’ve done, this is what I intend on doing and at this point, this is what I can do.  That’s been very helpful to get me out of my head and to keep me in motion.  What’s been exciting, another thing, I was thinking about what should I do in a wise manner?  What should I invest money in right now?

I realized that there’s lots of things that I can do for free right now.  For instance, I did check out the podcast answer man, Cliff Ravenscraft.  His first course is actually free.  So I’ll be taking that course as well.  Then I found some other resources like a blog schedule online with another site.  Unfortunately, I don’t know the full name of the site; but it actually has the name flourish in it.  It’s a designer who makes some suggestions in reference to flourishing.  So he created these realistic blog schedules or realistic schedules or planners.  One is for a full quarter.  I’ll be creating a — one quarter’s worth of blog schedules so that I could actually get my – just put in order the topics that I’m going to hit each quarter so that it’s not a jumbled mess.

>>Joel:    Okay.

>>Pam:    And I’m not, you know, flying by the seat of life pants.

>>Joel:    Okay.  Okay.  Gotcha.  Gotcha.  Podcast answer man, Cliff Ravenscraft.  Podcastanswerman.com.  Yeah, that’s — that’s a — he’s our podcast coach, he’s Dan Miller’s podcast coach and a zillion other people.  That’s definitely the place to go to get your podcast together.  Exciting, exciting times for you; and thank you so much for sharing a part of your journey; and I’m already looking forward to hearing more about how you’re growing it.

Talk about, real quick and we’ll come in for a landing on this one, getting your blogs started.  Was that a challenge for you?  Or is that still a challenge for – gosh, what do I say?  What do I talk about?

>>Pam:    I think it is a work in progress.  For instance, I’ve been – I’m thinking like a designer; and I think that design principles, as a graphic designer myself, design principles actually apply to a lot of different arenas.  So what I thought I would do is take a look at other people’s blogs, who are not personal but are more professional in their blog; and see what they talk about.  I
noticed that I didn’t necessarily have to – I don’t have to re-create the wheel, so to speak.  But I want to make sure that I keep my audience in mind and my vision.  I’m being prayerful about what my topic should be.  I think, out the gate, it will start off with who flourishes, what flourishing principles are all about and go from there.  Kind of, teaching my audience what to expect from Flourish and also laying down some basic foundational information.  Just talking about what Flourish is – not just what Flourish has to offer but how women can flourish:  the who, what, where, why, when, and how.  I jotted that down earlier today.  I had an idea about that; and I answered all those questions and thought, that would be great for me to just lay that out for the first month or so in my topics.

>>Joel:    Indeed.  Indeed. Thank you for sharing that as well.  So that leaves one W left.  That is my last question for today.  When are you committed to making that a part of what you do on a daily basis?

>>Pam:    In terms of my blogging?  Well, I’ve had two thoughts; and I’m sure you’ll give me your input.

The first was to wait until I actually have the website up and running just so that I come out the gate with a professional look.  The second thought was that perhaps I can create a blog now to get my feet wet and get in the habit of blogging.  It’s really easy for any designer to — any web developer — to just change that address to my permanent address.  Those are my two thoughts.  I haven’t made a decision yet.

>>Joel:    Okay.  Okay.  Do you — do you want my feedback on that?

>>Pam:    Yes.


>>Joel:    Well, let me ask you this, Pam.  If you were the coach and I asked you that question, what advice would you give me?

>>Pam:    Well, I’m learning that nothing happens – I mean — you have to like – experience is the best teacher in some regard.  Not that — not in every case, but that I have to do it to actually get a feel for it.  So I would say that the answer as a coach would be to jump in.  You know, to get it started just to get a feel for it before it’s the real deal.

>>Joel:    So what are you going to do?


>>Pam:    Okay.  So as I finish the — I’m going to finish the e-book and then I will set a schedule to get started with a blog.  I actually have the information at my fingertips on 48days.net about how to start one.

>>Joel:    Okay.

>>Pam:    I’m committing – I’m committing to do that, to start it before at the end of the month when I have my real deal site up.

>>Joel:    Let me make sure I understand this so we can talk about it later.  Toward the end of the month, is that when you’re going to start your actual blog?

>>Pam:    No.  What I was saying is I need to finish the e-book first.  That is first priority.

>>Joel:    Right.

>>Pam:    What — what I thought I would do is starting next week my goal is to finish up the — just writing the e-book, writing the content.

>>Joel:    That’s right.  That’s right.

>>Pam:    This weekend.  I’m committing to next week starting a blog just in the raw format before I have my professional site up.

>>Joel:    Gotcha.  Let me ask you this, Pam, and we’ll come in for a landing.  If you did that, if you hold yourself accountable and you follow through on what you just said, even if it wasn’t perfect and if it wasn’t exactly how you wanted it to look, just the action of going through that process, would that help you become a more powerful woman?

>>Pam:    I would say, yes.  Again, I realize that when I actually go through the process of doing things, that’s when I learn the most.  I think it would also help to make this a reality.

>>Joel:    Would becoming a more powerful woman, then in turn, help you to flourish?

>>Pam:    Absolutely.  That’s definitely the goal.  The goal is twofold with flourish.  Number one to walk my own journey, and number two, to share their journey with other women so they can do the same.

>>Joel:    That’s what I so much love about what it is you’re doing.  You’re not only bringing hope and encouragement and a community to other women; but you’re also – but you’re also your own customer, so to speak.  So you’re giving them tremendous value; but you’re also getting it in return.

>>Pam:    Yes.

>>Joel:    When you do work that you love and work that is in alignment with your best features and your enduring qualities, that’s what happens.  That’s the give and take.  That is just part of the process.  Powerful stuff.

Thank you so much, Pam, for being true to your dream and sticking with it.  Sometimes it’s a challenge, but you’re staying true to your vision and can’t wait to hear more about it next time.

>>Pam:    Thank you, Joel.  I really appreciate you a lot.  Thanks for the follow-up.

>>Joel:    God bless.

>>Pam:    Thank you.  The same to you.  Bye-bye.

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